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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:52 am 
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As far as I know, there are no good studies of any kind relevant to this subject at all. I could have sworn I remember I study where you need at least .8 grams to maintain and much more to grow, with no better results over 1.6 grams. I sure don't see it around anywhere.

I see you are one of those math people who thinks macronutrients are all the same. First problem, you can't even say all carbs are the same, the rate of digestion differs, the percentage of calories that are used in digesting and metabolizing differs. Also You can't say that the kcals of energy contained in the blood glucose created from the food is equel to the kcals of energy that was in the food before hand. Try 2500 calories of chicken and broccoli and compare those results to 2500 calories of cake and ice cream. You will find quite a difference I assure you. See this ginormous book of a thread for details.
http://exrx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2 ... sc&start=0

So what if it delays recovery. You're just losing weight, your recovery isn't that great at that time any way. So that reason is irrelevant. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. You keep giving me the same reason and I keep rejecting it.

Volume of carbs is part of the problem, but the glycemic or insulin index is a big part too. But Like I said most people eat that way, some people get away with it and some people don't, with varied degrees of problems. So like I said lots of people don't handle the carbs well. Otherwise they wouldn't be fat and working on getting diabetes.

I labeled myself the poster child? Funny I don't recall that. I think I mentioned having insulin resistance. That's about it though. A lot of people have that problem.

medications, diet and exercise are apples, oranges and aardvarks! Medications being the aardvarks in this case. You can't even make that statement about all types of medication. Why do you think doctor's say, if you have x, y or z problem, don't take this. So because people have a similar enough biochemistry to be affected in a similar way with a medication, that means they all handle carbs the same? That has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen you write. A macronutrient and a chemical are pretty different. There are medications that never got approved just because they have very unpredictable effects on people.

The vast majority of most peoples diets are made of refined carbs that we did not evolve to eat. You can't add something completely different in mass quantity and expect people to adapt to it in a couple generations. There are some people who have no problem with it. Most people have a problem to one degree or another, from a bit of a gut, to severe type 2 diabetes at 6 (yes, that is the new record for youngest case of type 2 now.) In several thousand years, we would adapt to it because only the people who have no problem would survive to pass on their genes.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:08 pm 
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I see you are one of those math people who thinks macronutrients are all the same.


I never said all carb are the same. You are reading something into my post that is not there.

You continue to see this through you condition. I understand why you would view it that way.

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So what if it delays recovery.


LOL...yea, screw recovery...who need it.

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You're just losing weight, your recovery isn't that great at that time any way. So that reason is irrelevant. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. You keep giving me the same reason and I keep rejecting it.


You provide answer with no data to back it up at time. As an example is you, "I could have sworn I remember I study where you need at least .8 grams to maintain..."

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I labeled myself the poster child? Funny I don't recall that. I think I mentioned having insulin resistance. That's about it though. A lot of people have that problem.


Your have often used term for youself like "fatty." The tread of you thought is based on your "condition." Thus, you are sensitive to that, as most would be.

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medications, diet and exercise are apples, oranges and aardvarks!


Ironboy...:), that was something know as an analogy. Let me reiterate it more plainly for you. The majority of individuals usually responnd to medication, diet, exercise, etc the same way.

A minority of individuals, such as you, respond a bit different. If that flys by you, let me know and I'll go over it again.

Your buddy...Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:44 pm 
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im getting a bit confused. so im gonna work out later tonight. I'll have a home made burger before, then some scallops and veggies after. that ok? :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:57 am 
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No I don't see this through "my condition". The various macronutrients have very different effects. It is like that for everyone. That is why all calories are NOT the same as you seem to think. They are not all the same until they are blood glucose.

Yea, if you're loosing weight, screw recovery. You're not eating enough to make your muscles grow anyway. I should know, I've lost around 100 pounds of fat.

I have provided data for some things I mentioned. However I have not seen 1 shred of proof for any of your points. Why don't you back up your points instead of whining because I couldn't find a link I was looking for.

Well, at my worst I was 255, with a 135 lean mass, if that's not a fatty I don't what is. I do not have some kind of obsession with "my condition", you seem to be obsessed with it lately. "My condition" is just an example of why your 1 size fits all unbacked theory is a big crock of horse $hit.

ah, we're descending into childishness.... Look Mr. Crocksdale, that was no analogy in the last post, you made a direct comparison and now you're trying to say I just misunderstood.

Oh so now there IS an exception to your 1 size fits all theory, there sure wasn't before. You're just making it up as you go along.

I'm sure it's a minority (less than half), but still quite a lot of people who may have trouble with the post workout carb insulin spike.
There is full blown type 2 diabetes, type 1 diabetes, hypoglycemia (nothing like fainting after your insulin spike drops your glucose levels too low), hyperglycemia (with causes other than insulin resistance or diabetes), endomorphs to a lesser extent, they just have crappy genetics for fat loss metabolizing high gi carbs and carbs in general. Probably other endocrine problems as well that I don't even know about.

I talked to someone just tonight who is thin and wants to gain weight. I mentioned the post workout carbs. He said he can't do that because diabetes runs in the family and while he doesn't have it, he already has skin that doesn't heal very well, which I saw first hand.

This one size fits all thing is what I have the most problem with. And 15 grams of protein? What are you going to do take 2/3 of a scoop of whey? Kindergarten kids could probably digest more.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:59 am 
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I'd skip the scallops if your trying to lose weight.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:26 am 
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Why skip the scallops (and , no I'm not trying to start a flame war)? Scallops are shellfish, mostly protein. I don't see why they would interfere with a weight loss program.When I can get them at a halfway affordable price I love broild scallop.
Tim


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:48 am 
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As long as they're not deep fried. Here in Nova Scotia they're quite common that way. I agree, broiled is fantastic.

http://www.whfoods.org/genpage.php?tnam ... e&dbid=105


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:12 pm 
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Ironman wrote:
No I don't see this through "my condition". The various macronutrients have very different effects. It is like that for everyone. That is why all calories are NOT the same as you seem to think. They are not all the same until they are blood glucose.

Ironboy, I have acknowledged the glycemic index. I NEVER said all calories are all the same.

You NOT reading my reply...reading means comprehension the informtion presented.

Ok...once more, most individuals are over weight from consuming too many calories...in plain English..."over eating"...eating more calories they burn...:)


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Yea, if you're loosing weight, screw recovery. You're not eating enough to make your muscles grow anyway.


Yea, screw recover. What that got to do with training...lol. You're a trip. Very entertaining.

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I should know, I've lost around 100 pounds of fat.


Here we go again. Back to the "fatty"...set my people free tirade.
Get off the cross. We need the wood.

Quote:
I have provided data for some things I mentioned. However I have not seen 1 shred of proof for any of your points.


I've provided research. If you can't remember, please let me know which piece of information you are refering to and I will provide it.

Quote:
Why don't you back up your points instead of whining because I couldn't find a link I was looking for.


I appreciate you acknowledging that you don't provide research to back up you statements at time. We are making progress.

Quote:
Well, at my worst I was 255, with a 135 lean mass, if that's not a fatty I don't what is. I do not have some kind of obsession with "my condition", you seem to be obsessed with it lately. "My condition" is just an example of why your 1 size fits all unbacked theory is a big crock of horse $hit.


You love being on the "fatty" cross, don't you...lol. It is your theme song.

Ok send me one of you "fatty" pictures and I will post it in my gym.


Ironboy, I NEVER said one size fits all. READ (comprehend) what I wrote. I said the majority of individuals respond in a similar way.

If we were all different, then no medication, diet or exercise program would work. The MINORITY of individual don't respond.

Quote:
ah, we're descending into childishness.... Look Mr. Crocksdale, that was no analogy in the last post, you made a direct comparison and now you're trying to say I just misunderstood.


Come on Ironboy...you can do better than that...lol. Go think about it...I have faith in you in this area. Don't let me down, ok?

Quote:
I'm sure it's a minority (less than half), but still quite a lot of people who may have trouble with the post workout carb insulin spike.


Well, thanks for contradicting yourself. "I am sure it's a minority"...so, I DIDN'T say everyone.

So, what percentage is it?
Quote:

Quote:
This one size fits all thing is what I have the most problem with.


You have a bitter problem with reading. I NEVER said one size fits all.

You need to invest in a remedial reading class.

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And 15 grams of protein? What are you going to do take 2/3 of a scoop of whey? Kindergarten kids could probably digest more.


What is this statement in regard to? Was it Ivy's research...something that I provided you.

If so, discuss it with Ivy. I am sure your credentials as well as you kowledge supercede his...:)

Your buddy...you gotta love this a little, don't ya? Come on...

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:54 pm 
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This has just descended into infantile silliness. You are a such a liar. You still haven't backed up anything you said.

All I said was I lost weight, where the hell are you getting all this on the cross bull$hit? You need to stick to a topic and knock it of with all this passive-aggressive crap and these childish outbursts and personal attacks. You've got issues.

And yea, the post workout carbs still aren't for people loosing weight, and Poliquin agrees, if you look at the link I provided.

I don't know who this Ivy guy is, but if he said that (and I doubt he did) he has his head right up his ass if he really thinks it's 15 grams for absolutely everyone on the planet regardless of size or goals. Size, muscles mass and some goals greatly change protein needs. That is common knowledge.

It is very hard, and not a bit enjoyable to have a discussion with someone like you who has childish temper tantrums and resorts to personal attacks to cover up that fact that he's just talking out of his ass.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:58 pm 
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ah, I see. It's regional thing. So scallops are seasfood there. Those do look pretty good. Around here (St. Louis area) scallops are sliced potatoes. So that explains my strange post.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:32 pm 
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Found some research on protein in the context of changing body composition.

See myth number 1 and then the references at the bottom.
http://www.leehayward.com/protein_myths.htm

1 kilogram is 2.2 pounds.
Also note this bit further down. a typical 30% fat 30% protein and 40% carb 3500 calorie bulking diet ends up with 262 grams of protein. This calorie level is typical of a bodybuilder with a 200 pound off season weight.

Go back to the poliquin notes I linked earlier for my take on post workout carbs during fat loss.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:33 pm 
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Ironman wrote:
This has just descended into infantile silliness.


And yet you continue to participate.

Quote:
All I said was I lost weight, where the hell are you getting all this on the cross bull$hit?


It is a reduindant them with you.

Quote:
You've got issues.


Once we solve yours we will work on mine. One thing at a time, as you suggested.

Quote:
And yea, the post workout carbs still aren't for people loosing weight, and Poliquin agrees, if you look at the link I provided.


I know that is Polquin's view.

Quote:
I don't know who this Ivy guy is,


Thanks for letting us know what we already knew.

Quote:
but if he said that (and I doubt he did) he has his head right up his ass


Instead you guessing, perhaps you might want to review some of his finding. Thus, you'd be better educated on this.

I am sure you much more qualified that he is.

Quote:
It is very hard, and not a bit enjoyable to have a discussion with someone like you who has childish temper tantrums and resorts to personal attacks to cover up that fact that he's just talking out of his ass.


Sounds like a referece to you. And since you continue to support this discussion, you must be enloying it to some extent...:)

I look forward to more discussion with you.

Until then...

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:35 pm 
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Ironman wrote:
ah, I see. It's regional thing. So scallops are seasfood there. Those do look pretty good. Around here (St. Louis area) scallops are sliced potatoes. So that explains my strange post.


Glad we got you educated on scallops...we are making progress.

Kenny

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:47 pm 
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Ironman wrote:
Found some research on protein in the context of changing body composition.

See myth number 1 and then the references at the bottom.
http://www.leehayward.com/protein_myths.htm

This is NOT research. This is Will Brinks views on the research.

Quote:
Go back to the poliquin notes I linked earlier for my take on post workout carbs during fat loss.


This is NOT research either.

Try again.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:22 pm 
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Ok, you got me on the point that I continued to participate. I would make you stop (the personal attacks and such, not posting in general) if you were talking to someone else. But I don't like to moderate conversations I am participating in. It just feels too fascist.

Looks like you can't read too well. I was talking about the references given.

References

1 Lemon, PW, "Is increased dietary protein necessary or beneficial for individuals with a physically active life style?" Nutr. Rev. 54:S169-175, 1996.

2 Lemon, PW, "Do athletes need more dietary protein and amino acids?" International J. Sports Nutri. S39-61, 1995.

3 Tarnopolsky, MA, "Evaluation of protein requirements for trained strength athletes." J. Applied. Phys. 73(5): 1986-1995, 1992

4 Phillips, SM, "Gender differences in leucine kinetics and nitrogen balance in endurance athletes." J. Applied Phys. 75(5): 2134-2141, 1993.

5 Tarnopolsky, MA, 1992.

6 Carroll, RM, "Effects of energy compared with carbohydrate restriction on the lipolytic response to epinephrine." Am. J. Clin. Nutri. 62:757-760, 1996.

7 Bounus, G., Gold, P. "The biological activity of undenatured whey proteins: role of glutathione." Clin. Invest. Med. 14:4, 296-309, 1991

8 Bounus, G. "Dietary whey protein inhibits the development of dimethylhydrazine induced malignancy." Clin. Invest. Med. 12: 213-217, 1988.



On the Poliquin thing, ok those are just notes. But I am sure if we were to dig around and find the book he published that in, there would be studies to site. Not to mention Poliquin has trained enough people to get a good enough random sample to where some of his anecdotal remarks are basically informal research.


Still no proof from you on anything. I have mentioned that several times now. "Ivy said so" doesn't cut it. He only said 4:1 ratio for post workout anyway. Again, it is common knowledge that one size fits all is bull$hit. So 4:1 worked for the people in the Ivy study, so what. What was their training level? What was the control group? What body type? It's not like you posted a reference to his research.

Let me answer part of my own question. Here is the Ivy study in question.

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/a ... /65/5/2018

8 and only 8 subjects that we know nothing about, cycled for *TWO HOURS* Which is way too long. No wonder they needed a lot of carbs! It doesn't say anything about these people trying to lose weight. It also doesn't say 60 grams for everyone. It was 3 grams of glucose per kilo of body weight.

In addition looking up the books references on amazon turned up nothing about protein at all. The book is also part of the "teen health series" so it's hardly a good source for adults.



Here Dr. Ivy did a study on the effect of clenbuterol on the glucose uptake of obese rats. Now why would he study such a thing if everyone's glucose uptake was the same or almost everyone?
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/a ... type=HWCIT

Another study of glucose uptake in obese rats. Why? You said that doesn't happen to most people.
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/a ... type=HWCIT

These results suggest that an exercise-induced reduction in muscle glycogen can improve insulin sensitivity in vivo but that this effect is diet dependent.
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/a ... type=HWCIT


Yea my issue is that I keep talking to asinine people. I'm in therapy for it right now. A couple more sessions and I should make a full recovery.


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