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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:51 am 
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People often bring up glycogen stores, but I don't believe that there's any hurry to restore them. Unless you are going to need to exert again shortly after the workout. Many people include carbs in their p-w/o meal or shake, but I don't think it's critical.

Carbs trigger insulin spikes at any time, it's just that this is more desirable post-w/o.

Protein p-w/o just makes sure that AAs are available for protein synthesis so the body doesn't need to borrow them from existing protein.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:26 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
People often bring up glycogen stores, but I don't believe that there's any hurry to restore them. Unless you are going to need to exert again shortly after the workout. Many people include carbs in their p-w/o meal or shake, but I don't think it's critical.

Carbs trigger insulin spikes at any time, it's just that this is more desirable post-w/o.

Protein p-w/o just makes sure that AAs are available for protein synthesis so the body doesn't need to borrow them from existing protein.


That's a very good explanation of why I only take the carbs on a bulk.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:56 pm 
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thanks for the replies chaps, I had always heard about having an insulin spike post-workout and I thought it was something to do with the workout itself...

While Im at it what's the deal with gluconeogenesis (sp?)? I don't really understand that concept either...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:51 pm 
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It's just the name for the process that converts proteins into an energy source for the body in the absence of carbohydrates. Lot's of interesting stuff happens. Might want to google it. It's a main reason that low carb diets can work fine.
Tim


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:15 am 
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Don't you get an insulin spike everytime you eat? Obviously some foods give a larger spike than others but, it's sort of being made out here that some foods don't spike insulin AT ALL, which, as far as I know isn't the case.

Insulin has often been described as 'the most anabolic hormone'. So, what do you want - Insulin, or GH? What's better? What's better PW? Do we know what's more desirable, or is the fact that you can't have both been the cause of the this recent line of thinking? I'm genuinely curious about this. When someone says, "not having carbs limits insulin output, but increases GH", I just think "so what?"

I just don't buy the no carbs PW thing. I understand and wouldn't argue with the science behind it. It makes sense. I don't know personally what's more desirable between insulin and GH. I think that it probably goes beyond glycogen stores, but I don't know enough about it really.

What I do know is the practical side of it. I don't think having zero carbs PW is practical. So here's my reasons for not buying into that,

- If I take the carbs out my PW shake, that's 200 calories off my intake. If i take the heavier carbs out of the meal following that (1-1.5 hours after), that's probably another 200, or close to it.

Every calorie is a prisoner for me. I struggle to get enough. I would much rather get those extra 200-400 calories in PW. I get heavier carbs in the morning, too, but the rest of my meals the carbs come from Veg.

-I used to have just a Whey protein shake PW, for the first 2 years that I started training. When I started taking a shake with 50/50 protein and carbs in it, I felt instantly stronger. I struggle to come away from this. When I don't have a lot of carbs PW, I feel like crap. Going by 'feel' isn't exactly the most reliable thing to do in most cases, but in real life it is hard to get away from.

I just think that getting outside of the PW glycogen replenishing mindset, and looking at your intake throughout the day makes the no carb PW thing questionable. Eating mostly meat and veg takes A LOT of eating to get decent calories, and I think the PW (or - peri workout) is a great opportunity to get more calories in with no negative effects. I'm not sure if those extra calories from carbs have an outright benefit over not having them, or if you can just 'get away with it' PW. But, either way, i've not seen enough to convince me to change the way I do it just now.

KPj


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:03 pm 
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Where do natural sweeteners such as honey, maple syrup (not the mrs. butterworths but the real stuff) and molasses and things like that fit? I would assume they aren't as bad as grains and white sugar and starches, but not as good as fruits and veggies or even legumes. Someone correct me if I am wrong here!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:20 pm 
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KPj wrote:



-I used to have just a Whey protein shake PW, for the first 2 years that I started training. When I started taking a shake with 50/50 protein and carbs in it, I felt instantly stronger. I struggle to come away from this. When I don't have a lot of carbs PW, I feel like crap. Going by 'feel' isn't exactly the most reliable thing to do in most cases, but in real life it is hard to get away from.


KPj


I find this discussion interesting....one of the best threads to come up in a while IMO.
I have come to realize that I am going to have to up calories and "bulk" for a while. Maybe next spring I'll drop BF%, but for now I am eating. So KPj, am I correct in thinking that you are using a "carb" powder along with your protein powder in your post workout shake? Or is it an all in one powder? I am curious and ready to research....


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:26 am 
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It's technically a meal replacement - One shake with Whey Protein and carbs in it. The carbs are from oats & barley. It has a 50/50 ratio of protein to carbs. If money wasn't an issue I would probably have something like Biotests Surge, but, the one I use is made by Reflex - quite a good make in the UK and not too expensive. They don't seem to put any or much crap in their stuff so that's why I use them. If i'm caught short i just drink 'full fat' milk.

I've lost fat a few times over the last couple of years and still had the big 50g protein, 50g carb shake after training, but, admittedly, i'm one of those guys that can lose fat quite easily.

I also have just a standard Whey protein powder (made by same company). Typically I eat an actual meal 1.5-2 hours before training, then before the gym I mix up 50g of Whey protein. I drink about half during the drive in, and sip the other half throughout the work out, although it's usually gone by the end of the first exercise. Those 2 shakes, all taken around/during the workout, add about 700 calories to my intake.

KPj


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:54 am 
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KPj wrote:
The carbs are from oats & barley. It has a 50/50 ratio of protein to carbs.

KPj


That's about what I do in the morning. Not sure I want another 1/2 cup of oatmeal in the afternoon. I think I would want it in powder form.....just add a scoop to what I am already making. ON has something I may take a look at....


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:53 pm 
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i recently got some of that reflex powder KPj uses too, it's so handy for making sure you get enough calories/protein it's almost TOO easy; the temptation's there just to drink millions of shakes every day.

Don't buy the banana flavour though. I did. It's horrid.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:39 pm 
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Is this a UK powder? Is it gonna cost me $6,000 to ship because the queen needs a new dress?

:green:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:24 am 
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nygmen wrote:
Is this a UK powder? Is it gonna cost me $6,000 to ship because the queen needs a new dress?


Be careful! Making jibe comments about the Queen and her dresses is still punishable by death in this country! :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:15 am 
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robertscott wrote:
Don't buy the banana flavour though. I did. It's horrid.


HAHA :lol:

I should of warned you about that. I have chocolate, it's 'no bad'. Strawberry isn't all that bad either.

BTW - encase you ever get tempted, never get the 'One Stop' sup by the same company. It's sold as this all in one recovery drink, with various extras in it - ground breaking stuff like, Creatine. And probably some caffeine....

Anyway, about a year ago I walked in to my gym and a trainer came up and said "Would you be interested in buying some protein powder? I bought it and don't like the taste - only want [1 million dollars] for it, and only had one shake out of it". "sounds great" - hand over money. Take tub. Very happy with myself - just got it for less than a third of the price. Mix up shake after work out. uuuuuururrrhhhhghggg (this is pretty much my reaction). The most disgusting thing i've ever tasted. I've tried some really bad tasting shakes and just dealt with it, but, this was on another level. I still feel sick when I think about the taste. I was certain that I would get used to it, but, even towards the end of the tub, it was still as bad as the first time I tried it. I JUST managed to keep it down tough, which technically makes it a good investment.

KPj


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:41 am 
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Rik-Blades wrote:
nygmen wrote:
Is this a UK powder? Is it gonna cost me $6,000 to ship because the queen needs a new dress?


Be careful! Making jibe comments about the Queen and her dresses is still punishable by death in this country! :lol:


Haha...

I looked up what I believe you guys are referring to, and I think it will cost roughly 2.5x what I pay now for protein, between conversion and shipping. OUCH!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:29 am 
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nygmen wrote:
Is this a UK powder? Is it gonna cost me $6,000 to ship because the queen needs a new dress?

:green:


watch it you! Her Royal Highness has been known to browse internet forums to spot potential threats to her sovereignty. Don't you live in the USA anyway Nygmen? If i did I'd be buying Biotest stuff but it's a ridiculous price to get it over here too...

KPj you bought knock off protein off the back of a lorry! Black market protein! No wonder it tasted awful the protein probably came from stray dogs.

BUt aye that banana stuff is rotten. It tastes like drinking a banana flavour oatcake smoothy that's been left out in the sun for a month. Also it doesn't mix very well so you get big manky lumps of stuff and you just think when you're drinking it that these lumps could be anything...


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