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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:47 am 
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Has anyone ever used supplements such as Biotests Z-12 ?

I'm looking for some kind of tranquilizer to knock me out at nights. Without becoming hooked on them. The scumbag in me wants to make an MJ joke here but, I loved MJ so I can't do it.

The older I get the more of an insomniac I become. I rarely feel tired at night. My guess would be that I normally fall asleep between 2am and 4am (get up at 7am). Sometimes it's quite bad, sometimes not too bad but hardly ever as much sleep as I want. Then when I wake up, i'm a mess and need to drag myself out of bed. I've been a night owl most of my life. I get it from my dad but, for some reason he's been able to thrive on 2-4 hours sleep per night all his life. I'm not that guy though. I do deadlifts. 4 hours isn't acceptable.

If anyone has tips/recommendations, feel free to chime in. I was going to order some Z-12, and see what happens.

Other thoughts:

It doesn't seem to matter whether i've trained or not. It's equally as bad on non-training days. However, i'm trying to train earlier anyway.

I read everynight and sometimes I think it's more of a problem than anything else. If it's something that really interests me, it perks me up. Something boring - like the NASM text - then it seems to help put me out.

I'm in the process of cutting down caffeine. I used to have atleast 4 cups per day at work, which are 'doubled up' measures so, you could call it 8 cups... I now have one in the morning and one in the afternoon, and no coffee at the weekends. One cup tops but normally none. I'm deffinitly making progress here and plan to cut it back a little more.

This will probably be the toughest habbit I ever break. When i'm learning/studying, i'm at my best at night. Always have been, even in high school. Something about the calm of night which makes my concentration immense. It's also my 'down time', when I like to enjoy my own company. I suffer for it in the mornings, though, and I need to change.

KPj


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:14 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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UPDATE - I just ordered it. The site I get supplements from has a club points system. It worked out that I only needed to pay 30% of the heavily marked up UK price when I included my points.

Will let you know how it goes. If sends me to sleep the same day I wake up, and without making me feel like crap in the morning, then it'll be priceless.

KPj


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:10 pm 
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definitely keep us updated, I have pretty much the same problem as you so if there is actually something that can be done it'll be fairly life changing


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:29 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
definitely keep us updated, I have pretty much the same problem as you so if there is actually something that can be done it'll be fairly life changing


: / same


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:39 pm 
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It'll most likely be monday/tuesday before it arrives so, we'll know towards the end of next week.

:smile:

KPj


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:57 pm 
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http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_arti ... _starnes_1

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Those who tolerate caffeine-based stimulants can't imagine dieting without them, and for good reasons. A quality stimulant provides the calorie-deprived lifter a much-needed energy boost and increases mental focus, all while keeping hunger at bay. Add in a nice boost to the metabolic rate and you can see why stimulants have such a loyal following.

That being said, it seems like half the population are either extremely insensitive to caffeine (can drink a case of Diet Mountain Dew and fall asleep) while the other half is the exact opposite: a cup of coffee at lunch-time will keep them up until 4 in the morning




I had once the same problem, but not due to caffeine. I took a magnesium supplement right before bedtime and couldnt fall asleep.
Maybe you cant tolerate a specific supplement right before sleep or have an allergy against something?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:54 pm 
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I got pretty bad there myself, but not as much caffeine. My inominia would wax and wane. I talked to my doctor and got some ambien and I love it. I only take it when I really need it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:12 pm 
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I find L-Theanine and ZMA help me sleep better, but don't help me get to sleep. I find the ZMA leaves me a little dry-mouthed, though, if I take the full dose, so I tend to take only 1 or 2 instead of the three they suggest.

If I'm really having a hard time getting to sleep, I'll take 1-2 mg of melatonin.

I'd be better off in a dark room, but my living situation doesn't permit that. I sleep in a room full of windows facing a well-lit bridge. So the supplements help a bit.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:16 pm 
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KPj--You've probably seen all of these "tips" but maybe there is something here that is new.

Try to achieve total darkness in your bedroom.
Use the bedroom only for sleep and sex. Don't read, watch TV, study, etc. there.
Try to regularize rising time as much as possible.
Cut out caffeine completely (at least for a time--perhaps reintroduce it cautiously later)
Avoid hot showers or baths in the last couple of hours before bed time.
Avoid exercise late in the evening.

Consider your over-all mood, level of anxiety/worry, etc. Depression and anxiety are well-defined clinical disorders with reliable and safe treatments. Depression often expresses itself as a loss of interest, loss of pleasure or loss of energy.

Also, breathing problems often interfere with sleep. Asthma and allergies should be treated effectively. Sleep apnea is now quite famous. It doesn't usually cause problems with falling asleep, but more with problems getting good-quality sleep.

Also, consider such mundane things as your bed. Is it really comfortable? I heard some sleep expert say that when you lay down, the only thing your mind should be how good your bed feels. Also pay attention to room temperature. Either too warm or too cold make it hard to sleep well.

If my dad were talking to you, he'd say that the best treatment is warm mild. He would just warm the milk in a small sauce pan to hot, but still drinkable. Always did the trick for him.

Most authorities agree that alcohol may make it easier to fall asleep, but interferes with the quality of the sleep.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:19 pm 
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Quote:
If my dad were talking to you, he'd say that the best treatment is warm milk

Whenever I can't get to sleep I drink a glass of milk and eat a glob of cottage cheese. Works 100% of the time.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:34 am 
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If my dad were talking to you, he'd say that the best treatment is warm mild. He would just warm the milk in a small sauce pan to hot, but still drinkable. Always did the trick for him.


If my dad was talking to you, he'd say that the best treatment is a tumbler of bourbon. He would just chill the bourbon in a tumbler with one ice cube.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:09 am 
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Jeannay wrote:
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/nutritional_leverage_with_shelby_starnes_1

........


I had once the same problem, but not due to caffeine. I took a magnesium supplement right before bedtime and couldnt fall asleep.
Maybe you cant tolerate a specific supplement right before sleep or have an allergy against something?


Thanks for this.

I don't really take any supps before bed. This is a problem that probably stems from when I was about 5-6 and onwards. When I was quite young, I always stayed up late with my dad watching gangster films. When I got a little older, I just always stayed up late. When I needed to study, I would start studying at midnight-ish. Could always concentrate much better at night. My dad has always stayed up very late but, he still gets up very early, bright as a button! My grandad was/is the same.... I've just never really considered it a problem until recently. Actually i've considered it a problem for ages, just never knuckled down and tried to address it.

For me though, I just hate dragging myself out of bed. I've been doing this "when you're alarm sounds, get your feet on the floor" thing. It's easier to get up but i'm still a zombie for a coupe of hours.

KPj


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:13 am 
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pdellorto wrote:
I find L-Theanine and ZMA help me sleep better, but don't help me get to sleep. I find the ZMA leaves me a little dry-mouthed, though, if I take the full dose, so I tend to take only 1 or 2 instead of the three they suggest.


I've heard/read that about ZMA, too. Supposedly Z-12 doesn't give you that 'hangover' feeling and you get good quality of sleep. I searched on PN for it, too and seen some quite strong recommendations. One from the good Doc himself.

Some people seem to take Z-12 in conjuction with ZMA. I think for now i'll just try Z-12 and see what happens...


KPj


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:03 am 
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That's quite helpfull. I've taken some of those steps but not all. I was never sure on the shower thing. Some people seem to recommend it before bed but i'm full of energy after a shower! The reading/studying thing has been a problem, I think.

I'm going to cut caffeine completely for a while. I've made some good progress. I used to be unable to function properly without a morning coffee but, I'm much better now and often don't realise I never had one in the morning.

Jungledoc wrote:
Consider your over-all mood, level of anxiety/worry, etc. Depression and anxiety are well-defined clinical disorders with reliable and safe treatments. Depression often expresses itself as a loss of interest, loss of pleasure or loss of energy.


I would like to think i'm in the clear here. I guess you never really know yourself. I'm not much of a worrier, really. I'm probably 'too' laid back. Friends and family generally take the pi$$ out of me for it. I don't know if it's a good thing or not, though. My mind is just overactive when I try and sleep. I think about all sorts of irrelevant nonsense.

Jungledoc wrote:
Also, breathing problems often interfere with sleep. Asthma and allergies should be treated effectively. Sleep apnea is now quite famous. It doesn't usually cause problems with falling asleep, but more with problems getting good-quality sleep.


The problems more falling asleep than staying asleep. Once i'm out, i'm out... However, my g/f says i'm a terrible sleeper. Apparently I talk a lot, and quite loudly (often about training!), and move around a lot. I always wake up in roughly the same position I fell asleep in so, I found this quite surprising.

One thing I can't get my head around is, let's say Sunday for example. I had a 12 hour shift at the gym, starting at 7:30am. I reckon I fell asleep the night before about 3am. I was a wreck when I woke up. Was a zombie most of the day but, it's a quiet shift so you get away with it. I took a spin class (yes you read that right!) which perked me up. By finishing time I was spent. Completely shattered. Almost falling asleep in the drive home. By the time 9pm came, I was buzzing. Wide awake, like it was 2-3pm in the afternoon. This happens quite a lot. I waken, feel like crap, and tell myself i'm going to bed at 7pm tonight 'cause i'm so tired. The later on in the day I get, the more awake I become.

Jungledoc wrote:
Also, consider such mundane things as your bed. Is it really comfortable? I heard some sleep expert say that when you lay down, the only thing your mind should be how good your bed feels. Also pay attention to room temperature. Either too warm or too cold make it hard to sleep well.


Bed is great! It's quite new, too. Room temperature, not so good. I'm always too hot when my g/f is too cold!

I'll just tell her the Doc says she's to 'man up' and keep the heating down.

Thanks for the tips/info. I think i'll get there but it'll take time. I hope this Z-12 provides a quick fix and possible pave the way for a new habbit of getting to sleep earlier but, I don't like the thought of relying on anything to get to sleep at night. Will be interesting...

KPj


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:36 pm 
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Your sleeping habits sound exactly like mine! Especially the studying starting at midnight. I had 4 days in a row that I went to bed at 6.30am from a hefty bit of work I had. I use ZMA and it makes the little sleep I do get, very good quality!


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