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Thanks Stuward. Just added it to my 'wishlist' on Amazon. Sounds very interesting - Just shows you really don't know what you don't know. Ha. There was one negative review on amazon which I stopped reading after it said "YOU SHOULD READ THE CHINA STUDY" - sigh.... Even more ammo for my vegetarian boss in the gym. By not harming animals you are actually harming animals. Great. The circle of life/food chain. It's nature really, now that I think about it. Look forward to getting the book but I have about 5 others I need to read first. Not enough hours in the day.

I think Frankie Boyle (Scottish Comedian) said this, but not sure,

"There's a vegetarian option... You can f*** off!".

Apologies if that's offensive I just couldn't resist.

KPj

I think the argument that vegetarians make is most cows and farm animals are not humanely raised tho. And they are choosing to fight for a cow because it is more aware, as in more susceptible to pain, than insects, mice, squirrels, etc living in a corn field. I'm not saying I agree with that I am just thinking their side of the argument. I think even vegetarians would agree tho- you have to destroy what's already there to start a farm.

I have met one vegan in life that wasn't a "weak boy". He didn't eat any soy at all though. Soy meat is about as processed as a box of twinkies. And most people don't know that soy meat contains MSG, or a different form of MSG, which rivals aspartame as far as controversy goes (I know most are pro aspartame on this board- just saying). They don't have to list MSG as an ingredient though so most are oblivious. I think since most on the board recommend a paleo type diet- for veggies we should recommend the agri diet- meaning whole agri foods like oats, beans, nuts, brown rice, etc for their protein- has to be better than foods where half the ingredients belong in a chemistry class.

I would say the humane vs inhumane thing was more down to greed/industry/profit/whatever-ya-wanna-call it than 'being a meat eater'.

You can choose not to buy eggs from caged hens, corn fed beef, etc (if that's what you meant).

As a meat eater i'm 'against' those things as well. Actually, if I'm honest, I don't care much for how they're treated but more about the nutrients they provide me. Letting animals live like they're supposed to just so happens to create the best quality of food from them, though.

I like the 'eco-system' perspective which seems to be detailed in The Vegetarian Myth. Looking forward to learning more about it as it's a perspective I had never considered before (for life to exist there must be death).

KPj

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Humanely raising animals satisfies everyone's agenda- for animals rights people obviously, health enthusiasts, environmental people, and so on. The only people it doesn't bode well for is the producers of food themselves, which is why they choose not to do it.

I'm extraordinarily skeptical of that claim, even if it's meant as an industry-wide average. Granted, some farm land is created by burning down jungles, but most isn't.

I'm not talking about industry averages. All farmland was once a wild ecosystem.

Think of the prairies and how many prairie dogs get run over by the machinery. Think of the wildlife habitat and unique prairie ecosystem that is almost extinct. Think of the buffalo and how that animal coexisted with the Plains Indians and the other wildlife. It's hard to imagine what a healthy sustainable ecology is because it's been corrupted for so long.

You have to ask yourself, is one cow more important than one prairie dog? Why? What about one mouse? Where do you draw the line?

But how many prairie dogs get stepped on or chased off their land by the 1 cow? Still highly skeptical.

Still, there is no denying that animals die regardless of the food we eat. Read the book. The author explained it better than I can.

Sure, I agree animals die regardless of what we do at all. I've seen animals kill other animals! They're so mean! How dare they?

Since were on the subject of meat, do any of you guys eat the fat off of pork? (The really saturated part)

I was going to eat some when my mom freaked out and threw it in the garbage lol.

Actually, cattle ranchers kill MANY prairie dogs, and a lot of other animals that threaten or compete with cattle*. Still pasture lands support a lot more wildlife than cropland (especially large scale monocultures).

* Cattle can step in prairie dog burrows and break their legs. Meanwhile, prairie dogs compete with cattle for grazing, since prairie dogs eat grass.

I often eat pork ribs for my lunch during the week. I actually enjoy them and choose them because they're nice and fatty

KPj

Most people have been brainwashed by 40 years of government telling us to reduce fats, especially saturated fats. If your mom gets grossed out, don't eat it in front of her.

Someone far more wise than me, I think it may have been Dan John but not sure, said something like "before the 70's, Fat was just the juicy bits on meat".

WHen i lived with my parents I had similar problems. They looked at me like I was taking steriods when I mixed up a shake. I actually 'smuggled' my shaker etc to my room to take my pre bed shake because they thought it was really bad to eat late at night - if I ate at 9-10pm I would get lectured.

Any time I got ill - maybe once a year - It would be "all those chemicals you're putting in your body". (meaning the protein shakes)

I would buy my own eggs so they couldn't track how many eggs I was eating because, you know, more than 3 eggs per week and your arteries will simply explode.

No chance in hell would I have shown them Creatine. They probably would of thrown me out the house.

It's just part of the joys of separating yourself from the average. Typically, the more criticism and general disgust you provoke from people who don't train, the better you're probably doing.

KPj