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 Post subject: workout "window"
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:43 am 
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how much do you buy in to the idea that you have to pay particular attention to the workout "window". What I mean is, the classic thinking that you NEED a fast digesting protein/carbohydrate shake in you the minute you finish working out?

Personally, I don't buy it. 2 hours-ish before I go to the gym, I eat a huge meal of meat, veg and carbs. It always has a minimum of 50g of protein in it. So then two hours after that I workout for an hour. Do I really need to have the fast acting shake? Surely my body is still digesting and extracting the protein from all the stuff I've already eaten today to "need" more fast digesting protein or carbs or whatever?

Am I wrong? Or is it really just the case that the supposed anabolic window around workouts is supplement company BS?

it seems logical to me that the first couple of meals you eat during the day will have a much bigger impact on your workout than whatever peri-workout regimen you're following


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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:14 am 
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Fred Hatfield always said that the period after a workout was to allow for growth hormones to do their stuff. Ingesting carbs in that period killed the effect. You have to try to find what works for you.

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:01 am 
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There are plenty of opinions, and plenty of theories. Many of them rely on different aspects.

In example, carb-back loading relys on the fact that having a truckload of carbs and protein right after workout destroyes the autophagycal function which tries to break down muscle cells.
Many consider the insulin and resistance trainings effect on muscles abilities to suck in carbs as the main point to eating right after work out. This is especially emphazised on many fasting theories. But like Stu said, some fasting and other theories rely on the fact that resistance training will elevate growth hormone levels, which eating will disrupt. So some people fast for a bit of time after workout too.

Protein is also a bit weird one. Some people recommend amino-acids like BCAA's before a workout, even though they will be digested from your belly for up to 7 hours or even more. Then again say you should take fast absorbing protein, like whey, before your workout, and slowly absorbing, like casein, afterwards.

Personally, I work maybe a bit better if I don't eat too much before the workout, especially carbs. Somewhere along 2 to 4 hours before workout is alright, and anything goes. It really depends how active has my day been, some lower carb, some higher. It doens't really effect my training. If it's near the workout, I tend to eat mostly protein and veggies. I hate to be full and bloated before a workout. Training fasted is also a good choise for me, no problem with that.

After workout, I don't stress about it. Sometimes it's immediately after the workout, and usually the biggest or second biggest meal of the day, sometimes a good meal comes an hour or two later. I still believe I benefit from food or supplements right after my workout, since I've drained lots of carbs and "broke" a lot of muscle during my exercising. I won't have a nervous breakdown if I can't get my huge meal or recovery-superfast-protein immediately.

It's your own head that solves the puzzle. All of the arguments above are most likely true and equal. The body and exercise-sciense with nutrition is a complicated and such a diverse issue. Is there only one truth to it? Many people have success with all of the ways. They all have worked before.

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:32 am 
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I used to worry about these things so much, eating enough before a work out and the moment I finish training drinking a shake. Since not noticing any difference in strength between fasted training, no carb training and training with carbs I've stopped caring. Usually I'll have meat for lunch and a shake before and after the gym. If I don't feel like drinking a shake right away I just leave it for a bit, a couple of years ago I would have made myself sick trying to drink it. I've stopped taking dextrose in my post workout shake as I just don't see the advantage of it any more and I love having carb binges on weekends so prefer to be glycogen depleted before them.


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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:23 am 
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I definitely looked better, in terms of bodyfat, when I dialed in peri work out nutrition a lot more. Right now it's just a joke and subject to a hectic and random schedule. My post workout supp is normally 1-2 pints of full fat milk and a flap jack, and I eat about an hour after that.

For me the post workout shake thing hit home when I realised that I could get 50g carbs, 50g protein (in a shake), straight after a workout, then about 45mins later, feel like I hadn't eaten yet and be able to eat a large meal. So i could easily eat even more. One thing i've noticed with young-ish guys wanting to get bigger is that no one knows what a lot is or understands that, to grow, you essentially need to eat "too much". There are times when this is easier and times when it's harder, depending on your life style and, well, just, you. Most people get a furious appetite the hours following a heavy lifting session. Not everyone, just most. If you do, you should take advantage, baring in mind the goal if you want to get bigger is to eat more than your body is comfortable with.

When I felt and looked my best I ate about 2 hours before the gym, then mixed a double whey shake before i left for the gym, drank half on the way there, half throughout the workout, then had a mass gainer (50g protein, 50g carbs) post workout, and a meal about an hour after that. In other words, I was getting about 500-1000 calories more peri workout then than I do now, and I didn't feel like i was force feeding or anything. I was leaner then, too.

I just think the best way to eat enough is the way you are going to stick to, whether that's 6 small meals or 3 huge meals. Or 20 hours of fasting and 4 hours of binging. As long as you eat enough to grow or improve. In terms of minimising or eliminating bodyfat, that's where your macros come into it and, people vary... I think the be all and end all is these things figured out for "you" but, done consistently.

I think that period of high insulin sensitivity following a workout definitely has something to it. Is this not one of the alleged mechanisms behind IF, too? All I do know is I can tell people that a carb up following a training session for the most part won't hinder fat loss and it almost always is the case.

I just think the big increase in appetite following the session is your body saying, FEED ME!!!!!

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 3:51 pm 
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stuward wrote:
Fred Hatfield always said that the period after a workout was to allow for growth hormones to do their stuff. Ingesting carbs in that period killed the effect. You have to try to find what works for you.


what's your take on it Stu?


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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 3:53 pm 
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KPj wrote:
I definitely looked better, in terms of bodyfat, when I dialed in peri work out nutrition a lot more. Right now it's just a joke and subject to a hectic and random schedule. My post workout supp is normally 1-2 pints of full fat milk and a flap jack, and I eat about an hour after that.


is that because your peri workout nutrition is off, or because your whole day's worth of eating is a bit haphazard due to your schedule?


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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:13 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
stuward wrote:
Fred Hatfield always said that the period after a workout was to allow for growth hormones to do their stuff. Ingesting carbs in that period killed the effect. You have to try to find what works for you.


what's your take on it Stu?


I don't fuss over it. If I feel like it, I'll go with something after, otherwise, I'll wait until I can get a full meal. I don't gain weight without gaining fat and post workout anything, tends to make me fat.

By the way, any time I quote Fred Hatfield, it's because I think he is a genius.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:48 pm 
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stuward wrote:
I don't fuss over it. If I feel like it, I'll go with something after, otherwise, I'll wait until I can get a full meal. I don't gain weight without gaining fat and post workout anything, tends to make me fat.

By the way, any time I quote Fred Hatfield, it's because I think he is a genius.


Hmmm, I think maybe when I go back to fasted training I might try and push the fast a little further post-workout...

I've read a few things by Dr Squat, they've all been pretty awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:08 am 
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robertscott wrote:
is that because your peri workout nutrition is off, or because your whole day's worth of eating is a bit haphazard due to your schedule?


Its really from about 5:30pm till 10:30pm that's off. The rest of the time is pretty routine. Maybe with the exception of a Saturday as I can have 4-5 sessions back to back and not get a chance to eat.

My point was really that most who are trying to get bigger don't eat enough. For most it's easier to get more calories in peri workout than adding more else where. That's for 2 reasons - most have the same routine surrounding their lifting sessions, so it's easier to factor in shakes and play around with pre and post meals and, "most" get furiously hungry after a hard lifting session, and are just able to eat more at this time than any other time. There are some people who don't get that burst in appetite post workout, though.

For a lot of people, you can add significantly more peri workout and not gain any fat. Not everyone, though. Some people seem to have a very low tolerance for carbs. I still think you need to eat a lot peri workout, regardless of what you eat. If you train for general health then it probably doesn't matter. If you're trying to gain muscle mass then I think it's probably crucial. I don't think i've spoke to a big guy who doesn't eat crazy amounts of food around the workout (I almost always ask big guys what they eat...). You've got to get a crazy amount of food in somehow, if it's easier peri workout then I think peri workout is best, if it's easier some other time then i think some other time is best :rabbit:

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:12 am 
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stuward wrote:
Fred Hatfield always said that the period after a workout was to allow for growth hormones to do their stuff. Ingesting carbs in that period killed the effect. You have to try to find what works for you.


Anabolic Hormone

Stu, as you know, insulin is regarded as one if not the most anabolic hormone there is. It rates right up there with testosterone.

Shooting Insulin

Bodybuilders stack insulin with HGH and testosterone because of the anabolic effects.

High Glycemic Index Carbohydrates

High glycemic index carbohydrages trigger the release of insulin.

Postworkout Insulin

Research shows that in a postworkout condition, insulin shuttles nutrients to the muscles.

When insulin levels are elevated at other times of the day, insulin is more of a "fat making" hormone.

Thus, a peri (during workout) beverage as well as a post (after workout beverage) that contains a high glycemic index carbohydrate is going to provide an anabolic enviroment.

Research demonstrates this is THE most effective time to jack insulin levels up...peri and postworkout.

Growth Hormone

While some growth hormone is produces post workout in the absence of insulin, it is questionable if there is that much growth hormone released. It is also questionable if the overall effect of ingesting high glycemic index foods represses growth hormone.

Kenny Croxdeale

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:15 am 
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robertscott wrote:
I think maybe when I go back to fasted training I might try and push the fast a little further post-workout...


Fasted Training

I see that is being more determental that positive. While there is some positives to it, the negatives out weigh it.

Kenny Croxdale

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:35 am 
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robertscott wrote:
how much do you buy in to the idea that you have to pay particular attention to the workout "window". What I mean is, the classic thinking that you NEED a fast digesting protein/carbohydrate shake in you the minute you finish working out?


I've addressed this in previous post.

Heart Attack

Think of training as knowing you are going to have a heart attack.

When is the BEST time to do something about it?

1) Before you have it.

2) While your having it?

3) After you have it?

The obvious answer is the best thing to do is do something before you have a heart attack so it minimizes the trama.

It is the same way with training. So, having something before you workout is the best thing you can do.

Tha mean consuming something before hand...as you state below is the best thing to do.

Quote:
Personally, I don't buy it. 2 hours-ish before I go to the gym, I eat a huge meal of meat, veg and carbs. It always has a minimum of 50g of protein in it. So then two hours after that I workout for an hour. Do I really need to have the fast acting shake? Surely my body is still digesting and extracting the protein from all the stuff I've already eaten today to "need" more fast digesting protein or carbs or whatever?


Post Heart Attack

Think of you training again as having a heart attack. So, you "eat a huge meal" of medications before you heart attack.

Does you really need takin anything during or after having your heart attack? Surely you body is still using/digesting and extracting the medications from what you had before your heart attack, right?

Right. However, what you do during having your heart attack and after has an impact on your survival and recovery.


Quote:
Am I wrong? Or is it really just the case that the supposed anabolic window around workouts is supplement company BS?


Nutrient Timing by Dr John Ivy

This is an excellent piece book. What I love about this book is it is cheap (about $10), short and easy to read. Ivy provides information on the reason's why you need a pre, peri (during) and post workout beverage...why it help with muscle growth and recovery.


Quote:
it seems logical to me that the first couple of meals you eat during the day will have a much bigger impact on your workout than whatever peri-workout regimen you're following


Logical of Heart Attackes and Training

Back to the heart attack analogy. So, you take the right medication before you have a heart attack.

Is the medication you take during and immediately after having your heart attack that important? Could you just have some medication "the first couple of meal" and have the same effect?

Crescent Wrench Vs Hammer

You can drive nails into a board with a crescent wrench. However, a hammer is a much better tool for getting the job done.

Eating before your workout and later in the day amounts to the crescent wrench. It works.

However, the hammer (pre, peri and post workout) is much better.

Kenny Croxdale

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:23 am 
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always interesting to hear your take on things Kenny


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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:47 am 
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There are several things one can do to eat more healthy:
1. eat more often
2. eat better foods
3. vary foods depending on time of the day and from day to day
4. drink more water


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