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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:52 am 
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First about the overhead press. To qualify for a level,do you first have to clean the weight up or is picking it off a rack enough? I would assume the latter. How strict does it have to be? Zero bend of the knees? Backbend?

And one question about cleans; do they have to be all 'clean' as in one motion or is it OK to continental up the weight?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:34 am 
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Those standards came from Mark Rippetoe. The descriptions for the exercise would be in the book "Starting Strength"

The Press is standing upright with no leg drive. Whether you clean the weigh or take it from a rack is unimportant. The clean should be clean.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:13 am 
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Thanks. Now when you say "upright" I assume that the degree of backbend is not controlled.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:20 am 
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I think perhaps the cleans should be removed or perhaps replaced with curls or something,because of their intense technicality.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:25 am 
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It's controlled by your back, as in not externally supported, but it's not the old style standing bench press. Rippetoe has videos on the Crossfit site and he describes it very well in his book. It's worth checking out at the library. It's actually worth adding to your home library as it's a valuable resourcse.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:29 am 
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Alfred wrote:
I think perhaps the cleans should be removed or perhaps replaced with curls or something,because of their intense technicality.


The benefit from doing cleans far outweighs the benefit from curls. The 5 exercises are the 5 basic exercises in Rippetoe's book. That's why they are what they are.

Cleans are not that complicated. Most people can teach themselves how to do a passible clean in relative short order using Rippetoe's books and online resourses. That won't get you to the Olympics but it will get you stronger.

Read the cover page that goes along with the standards: http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifti ... dards.html

Note:
Quote:
Tables for the basic barbell exercises were developed from:

definitions in "Practical Programming" by Kilgore, Rippetoe, and Pendlay
the experience and judgment of the authors,
the exercise techniques described and illustrated in “Starting Strength” by Rippetoe and Kilgore, and
published performance standards for the sports of powerlifting and weightlifting.
Provided by Dr. Lon Kilgore, PhD


Kilgore, Rippetoe, and Pendlay collectively have a lot of experience. I wouldn't argue against any of them.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:55 am 
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It's interesting the different resources on the web. I was looking around at the overhead press and came across this:
http://www.acefitness.org/exerciselibra ... rciseid=71
I see 2 issues. They recommend a split stance. This actually makes it an easier exercise, and the final position doesn't have the bar over the shoulders. This one does the same:
http://www.stumptuous.com/cms/displayar ... hp?aid=122
These are both otherwise good sites.

This one is better:
http://stronglifts.com/how-to-overhead- ... technique/
Here's another one that get's it right:
http://worldfitnessnetwork.com/index.ph ... technique/

Best is to look for Rippetoe's video's which I can't look up at work due to firewall restrictions.

Stu


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:34 am 
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The Crossfit total includes the Standing Press, and Mark Rippetoe wrote the standards for judging it:

http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/52 ... FTotal.pdf

I'm certain that applies in his strength standards as well.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:49 am 
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stuward:
Quote:
The benefit from doing cleans far outweighs the benefit from curls.
I think that depends on your goals; if you're a weightlifter,then probably yes. If you're interested in limit strength,which is what most of these lifts are,then curls are a good idea. Cleans cannot be relied on for the development of any single muscle. A few small powerlifting federations include curls in contests and the ExRx does not have any measure of arm flexor strength so far. It is also light on upper back strength but it is arguable that pressing covers that to some extent since lat strength and trap strength limits pressing. And theoretically speaking,cleans depend heavily on lower body strength which is already covered though with beginners it can be more about arm and shoulder strength.

As weightlifters say,strong people can very often lift less than strength alone allows them in weightlifting because of all the skill involved,so I don't think anybody can say with a straight face that cleans are an objective test of strength alone.

A weightlifter capable of cleaning and jerking 480 may struggle with a press of 220 and a lifter cleaning and jerking in excess of 440 pounds may have a deadlift max of 540. And a non-weightlifter deadlifting over 650 may fail a clean of 220. Now don't get me wrong. I think anyone who can power clean "elite" is very strong, but this test lets many strong people down as far as pure strength is concerned.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:06 pm 
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I don't know where you're coming from but this is becoming a wierd discussion. Curls are an accesory lift.

Read everything here: http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/ ... ength_Wiki

The standards relate to the "Starting Strength" exercises and nothing else.

I don't know why I keep getting sucked into these discussions.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:13 pm 
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wow. This thread just got really interesting/entertaining.

My opinion - Cleans over curls, easily. I don't think they can be compared at all. It's a strange one. I think cleans are an excellent test of strength. I don't think curls are, at all. If any PL federations use them in competitions, I can only assume that it's for sheer entertainment or curiousity.

I think squats and Deadlifts are about the same difficulty. infact, Squats and DL's are probably more difficult than a clean, especially when you consider flexibility issues, but difficulty of exercises is often an individual thing.

Don't no if this terms used across the pond, but basicallt what i'm trying to sya is that this is a "no-brainer". Cleans cleans and more cleans.

Anyway, i'm done

KPj


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:23 pm 
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KPj wrote:
wow. This thread just got really interesting/entertaining.

My opinion - Cleans over curls, easily. I don't think they can be compared at all. It's a strange one. I think cleans are an excellent test of strength. I don't think curls are, at all. If any PL federations use them in competitions, I can only assume that it's for sheer entertainment or curiousity.

I think squats and Deadlifts are about the same difficulty. infact, Squats and DL's are probably more difficult than a clean, especially when you consider flexibility issues, but difficulty of exercises is often an individual thing.

Don't no if this terms used across the pond, but basicallt what i'm trying to sya is that this is a "no-brainer". Cleans cleans and more cleans.

Anyway, i'm done

KPj
Thank you for your opinion too. I respect it though I don't agree. I cannot imagine many young and healthy people who could not deadlift or squat properly,but I keep hearing how olympic lifting must be started young and practiced for ages with constant technique refinement to be great,which is most certainly not what powerlifters are doing,because powerlifting is a test of limit strength and weightlifting is a test of strength and skill.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:31 pm 
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Outside of people who start young and have a good coach or mentor, it's actualyl difficult to find someone who can squat properly. If you just dive under the bar and squat, then you're probably not doing it correctly either.


Alfred wrote:
which is most certainly not what powerlifters are doing,because powerlifting is a test of limit strength and weightlifting is a test of strength and skill.



I think your a little mixed up, or something. What is it that powerlifters are not doing?

KPj


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:57 pm 
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Alfred wrote:
And a non-weightlifter deadlifting over 650 may fail a clean of 220. Now don't get me wrong. I think anyone who can power clean "elite" is very strong, but this test lets many strong people down as far as pure strength is concerned.


Huh???

A "non-weightlifter" is deadlifting and cleaning??? Wouldn't that make him (or her) a weightlifter? Non-weightlifters don't lift weights, as far as I can figure out.

And how can a lift "let people down"?

You consider a couple of mirror muscles more important than all the muscles that are involved in cleaning?

I'm confused.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:31 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
Alfred wrote:
And a non-weightlifter deadlifting over 650 may fail a clean of 220. Now don't get me wrong. I think anyone who can power clean "elite" is very strong, but this test lets many strong people down as far as pure strength is concerned.


Huh???

A "non-weightlifter" is deadlifting and cleaning??? Wouldn't that make him (or her) a weightlifter? Non-weightlifters don't lift weights, as far as I can figure out.

And how can a lift "let people down"?

You consider a couple of mirror muscles more important than all the muscles that are involved in cleaning?

I'm confused.
What I meant is that strong people may fail olympic lifts due to technique and technically savvy olympic lifters may be disproportionately weak.
As long as cleans are a part of the strength standards,it will not be a pure strength chart.

Cleans don't bring in many or any new muscles that are not tested by other lifts.Technically poor lifters will try to muscle it with their arms,the experts will employ the best leverages. Either way,we cannot tell what's going on quite as easily as with 'strength' lifts.


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