ExRx.net

Exercise Prescription on the Net
It is currently Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:17 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:48 pm 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 2:10 pm
Posts: 6
For the last two weeks one of my female athletes has been experiencing a mixed feeling of being tired / having a bit of pain in her back. Specifically it´s in the thoracic region to the right of the spine. She has a tender area in the erector spinae in this area.

She can sprint and jump without any pain. She sometimes get this tired feeling in her back, but it´s not that bad.
It seems to be provoked by backsquatting. She can lift without pain, but the tired feeling is present when lifting gets to around 75 % of 1RM.

Deadlifting does not seem to provoke the same reaction.

When she was younger she was told she had a tendency to Scheuermanns. This has not been confirmed - she does have a kyphotic back though. When told she is able to straighten her back, but usually falls back within a matter of minutes.

Her strength levels:
Backsquat: 5x65kg
DL: 1x90kg

What´s your take on this? I am bit in the dark here. Insufficient back strength? Trouble with the vertebrae? Is lifting a problem here?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:38 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am
Posts: 3984
It sounds like overtraining is a possibility. If she has also lost strength and endurance, it is almost certain to be overtraining. Try my recovery plan. It takes 2 weeks. You just cut the volume down to about a third of what she usually does. Then drop the intensity by lowering the weight a little, like 85 to 90% of the weight usually done on those lifts. Then the next week, volume is kept the same but you kick the intensity back up. By week 3 she should be able to go back to normal.

If that doesn't do the trick she may need medical help. The thing is the tiredness and the overuse injury of the erector spinae are very common overtraining symptoms. Where you describe the pain is very typical of overuse of the erector spinae. This is caused not just by overtraining the whole body but can also be due to overtraining of just that muscle. Too much squating, deadlifting and rowing without enough rest will cause that. Another issue is the form on those lifts. If your back bends or rounds this can cause injury over time. The back should be straight on the squat. On deadlifts I see so many people bend mostly at the waist and very little at the knees this put WAY to much pressure on the erector spinae and will damage the back. The deadlift should be done with the butt down and the back straight. The glutes should push the weight up, not your back.

So, make sure the form is perfect, do the recovery, make sure future training allows enough rest and has volume and intensity at appropriate levels for the type of training, make sure erector is given enough time to recover before being used again (squat, deadlift and row variations). I would be very surprised if that doesn't take care of it.

One more thing that can help. Vary the training. Do high intensity failure training with low volume. Then do sets where you lower the weight to where you are nowhere near failure and then do high volume. Or another high volume program can be doing your 6RM for 3 reps. Try single set training with rest-pause, forced reps, static holds, negatives, and drops, even multiple drops. Try pyramids. Do typical strength, hypertrophy, power and endurance phases. Of course keeping it skewed to her main goal.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:30 pm 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 2:10 pm
Posts: 6
Thank you for your help. We'll try your two-week suggestion. I'll report back once we're there - hopefully it is better then.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:29 am 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 2:10 pm
Posts: 6
Latest development:

After an extensive examination by a chiropractor she was diagnosed with a facet syndrome in the thoracic back.

She should be back at full speed in 1-2 weeks.

The syndrome was probably caused by a wrong landing on her arms during a medicine ball acceleration.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:41 am 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am
Posts: 3984
She was able to lift with that? Wow. That won't account for the tiredness though so I would still lower the volume a bit. Also pay attention to form. I have a feeling poor deadlift form has just as much to do with this as the medicine ball. Keep the butt down and the back straight.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:09 pm 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 2:10 pm
Posts: 6
Here's a status report:
The back is still causing minor problems. The facet syndrome has been corrected and is almost stable now. Still the chiropractor has suggested we skip lifting for a week or two - including lighter loads and exercises which did not elicit the symptoms.

Yesterday she got a bit of pain around her left shoulderblade after swinging her arms during warmup. She did quite a lot of bounding without any problems though.

The feeling of tiredness is still there sometimes - not as much as two weeks ago, but it's still there. Today she did some long jumps with full runup and several repetitions of maximal sprinting - no problem. Some jumping over low hurdles caused a minor discomfort in her lower back.

All in all I am more and more certain that it is a muscular thing. We have startede using foam rollers, which has loosened her erectors.

In an attempt to maintain her strength levels we have been doing onelegged deep squats and high stepups with no load.

Any comments?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:49 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am
Posts: 3984
In my opinion the chiropractor got it right. It sounds like she needs to rest for a couple weeks. One reason being she needs to heal from the injury, you don't want to make it worse. Second reason, if she still has overtraining symptoms, it must have been pretty bad. Rest is the only thing that is going to fix that. Then ease back into the routine slowly. Once she is recovered, it sounds like the volume needs to be lowered because she is doing to much. It's the same thing that happens to the natural bodybuilders, I have seen plenty of these guys tear muscles and tendons and screw up there joints. They are always having to get injections and physical therapy and such. It is all from doing too many sets. They try to do the same workouts as the steroid users and without the added recovery ability, that's what happens. Sure an overreaching phase is a good thing, but you can't train like that all the time.

What kind of athlete is she? Depending on what, maybe someone on here could give you some advise.

By the way, making sure she doesn't have some kind of a medical condition that would explain the way she feels might be a good idea too. You know, like make sure she doesn't have a thyroid problem or something.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:00 am 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 2:10 pm
Posts: 6
The athlete in question is a 17 year old long jumper. She has pretty good speed (20 m flying 2,29 s), is quite strong for her age, has excellent reactive abilities (Bosco test 3,79 ratio, contact time 122 ms), but still lacks in explosive strength (Standing long jump 2,15 meter).

I have tried to improve her strength levels this fall. This resulted in a n increase in estimated 1RM squats from 60 kg to 75 kg.

The next eight weeks are/were dedicated to improve primarily explosive strength (besides speed and technical skills).

We are not lifting weights at the moment, but the jumping is proceeding as planned. I have a problem deciding on the jumping aspects. She has no problems with her back during the entire day and during most sprinting and jumping. Then it pops up once in a while - especially directly after intensive and/or vertical jumping.

Should we continue jumping and sprinting, letting the absences of weights being enough for her to recuperate - or should one or both be excluded for now?

Is there somehow we can maintain the gains she has acquired - or is this a deadend?

She´s is out of town for two weeks in 8 days. In that period she will propably have to reduce the intense parts of sprinting and jumping.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:19 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am
Posts: 3984
I don't really know about the sprinting and jumping. We'll see if anyone else has something to say about that.

What is her weight training program like? Just so I can get an idea of the volume. What is her nutrition like? Lack of nutrition can cause these problems. If those check out she should really be checked for other medical problems.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:45 pm 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 2:10 pm
Posts: 6
We started the GPP in week 40. In week 40-44 she did lower body twice a week, upper body three times a week.

From week 45 it shifted to three times lower body, two upper body.

The program below is from right about the time, where the back problems started.

Week 46:
Monday:
Backsquats 5x5 (40-45-52½-57½-65kg)
Eccentric hypers 3x5

Tuesday:
Benchpress 5x5x37½kg
Lat Pulldowns Front 3x5x40kg
Seated row 3x5x40kg

Wednesday:
Squats 4x5 (40-45-52½-52½kg
Deadlift 3x77½kg-2x82,5kg-1x90kg
RDL 4x15x20kg

Thursday:
Rest

Friday:
Cleans 3x5x40kg
Squats 4x5 (37½-45-50-57½kg) +3x65kg
RDL 4x15x20kg

Saturday:
Benchpress 3x5x35kg
Lat Pulldowns Front 3x5x35kg
Seated row 3x5x35kg

Sunday:
Rest

The above stuff is only weight training. On top of that is core drills three times a week (low intensity - large volume). No day is weights only.

The week also includes some sprinting and jumping, and app. 3000 meters tempo running (65-75% max speed).

At the time there was (at least that is my opinion) no sign of her being tired. She did not complain about being tired. There was no DOMS, everything progressed very nicely.

ABOUT SPRINTING AND JUMPING:
During sprinting the back muscles work primarily as stabilizers. Their task is to keep the pelvis in the stable and to facilitate a SSC in the hip region. The time under tension is not that impressive, and average force in quite low. Peak force is quite high though. This is augmented under jumping. On landing the peak force is as high as 6-8 x BW for this particular athlete. Keeping the spine stable is of high priority, so the erectors produce a very high force for a split second during landing in horizontal jumping - especially if technical performance is faulty.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:26 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am
Posts: 3984
That's really not too bad, as long as she eats pretty good. You might want to have her see a doctor just to be on the safe side.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:13 am 
hi jakla! :0)

could you please tell me what sheuermanns is? what do you think about getting her to try some bodyweight pull ups or assisted pull ups > climbing?

nicole :0)




jakla wrote:
For the last two weeks one of my female athletes has been experiencing a mixed feeling of being tired / having a bit of pain in her back. Specifically it´s in the thoracic region to the right of the spine. She has a tender area in the erector spinae in this area.

She can sprint and jump without any pain. She sometimes get this tired feeling in her back, but it´s not that bad.
It seems to be provoked by backsquatting. She can lift without pain, but the tired feeling is present when lifting gets to around 75 % of 1RM.

Deadlifting does not seem to provoke the same reaction.

When she was younger she was told she had a tendency to Scheuermanns. This has not been confirmed - she does have a kyphotic back though. When told she is able to straighten her back, but usually falls back within a matter of minutes.

Her strength levels:
Backsquat: 5x65kg
DL: 1x90kg

What´s your take on this? I am bit in the dark here. Insufficient back strength? Trouble with the vertebrae? Is lifting a problem here?


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 


All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group