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 Post subject: Hang Cleans
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:19 pm 
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n00b
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Hey guys,

It's going to be exam period soon, and I don't think I have enough time to pull off more splits so I am going to have full body workout instead. My goal is to work most muscles in shortest time possible, so the workout will consist of compound movements mostly. My focus is strength/power, and not so much on size. The thing is, can I have hang cleans substituting upper traps and lateral deltoid execrises? Doing shrugs and lateral raises (I don't do upright rows) seems to consume more time and seem to work less muscles... so I think hang cleans might be the better bang for the buck deal.

My workout in the near future would look something like this:

Barbell Bench Press
Dumbbell Row
Lats Pulldown
Barbell Shoulder Press
Full Squat
Romanian Deadlift
Leg-Hip Raise
Calf Raise
Hang Cleans (if approved by you guys)

*In no particular order

It should be completed in less than an hour (I hope), and consist of 1 set of warm-up and 2 sets of 8-10 reps.

Thanks!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:41 pm 
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http://www.muscleandfitness.com/training/70

Quote:
Know this: There is nothing you can do in the gym that will develop your ability to produce power and muscular size better than the hang power clean (HPC). It’s an explosive jump shrug, upright row and front squat all rolled up into one fully loaded movement. According to research, the HPC produces more than four times as much power as the squat or deadlift and more than nine times that of the bench press. That’s one hell of an exercise, right? And because the move is so jam-packed, it’s extremely important to make certain that you have every phase perfected in order to avoid injury. The sooner it becomes second nature to you, the sooner you’ll begin reaping the benefits in power, strength and resulting muscle growth


I can't verify his claims about the power that the HPC produces, but it is the perfect lead-off exercise for a full body routine. And the upper traps and side deltoids are covered.

Happy training. And good luck on your exams


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:55 pm 
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In Memoriam: TimD
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Go for the HPC's, but why not off the floor? That way, there goes the RDL,.In a clean off the floor, you deadlift the bar, under control, until the bar is just above knee level. You should have shifted the weight back while coming up, so that butt is way back, shins are vertical, and the bar is right above the knee waiting for the scoop and jump shrug kick. This position is pretty much the RDL, only dynamic.
One note about Stephen's exerpt though, the HPC does NOT incorporate a full front squat. The power version is caught at around a 1/4 o 1/2 squat. If you really want to shorten things up, do a squat clean from the floor, followed by a mil Press, and you've got 90% of the body covered. Then go on the your rows and benches.
Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:31 pm 
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TimD wrote:
One note about Stephen's exerpt though, the HPC does NOT incorporate a full front squat. The power version is caught at around a 1/4 o 1/2 squat. Tim


I'll admit that I use "clean" and "power clean" interchangably when there are differences between the two:

Quote:
The "clean" is called the clean because in the OLD DAYS, the bar was not ALLOWED to contact any part of the body before it reached the shoulders. It had to be lifted "clean" of the body vs. the continental or anyhow lifts which could touch the body. Sometime, I don't recall when, the rules were changed to allow the bar to contact the thighs, shins, etc. which brought in modern technique. It also de-emphasized the relative importance of upper body as compared to lower body strength.

The only "definitional difference" if you know what I mean, between the clean and the power clean is the following.

In the clean, more properly called the SQUAT or SPLIT clean (depending on version), the bar is caught on the shoulders and the lifter can amortize the force by riding the weight down, as far as he wants to go (w/o the ass touching the ground which is illegal).

In a power clean, the bar is caught high enough, and/or the amortization is short enough, such that the femurs don't get below parallel in relation to
the ground (or they have to stay a bit higher depending on how loosely one defines the power clean). This is the "power" position of the body, knees bent in a pre-jumping position, and that is where the lift got it's name.


True or false? It would seem that the power clean involves upper body pulling more, while the full clean relies more on the legs to drop under the bar.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:31 am 
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Stephen, well, somewhat. They both require lots of upper body strength for the pull, the traps, and both require about the same hip and ham strength for the pop and jump shrug portion. The only real difference, is , a full clean is a missed power clean, i.e. you have to go low to make the "rack", and because you don't pull as high in a full clean, leg power is brought into the equation for the recovery. The first part of the 2nd quote was referring to "cleans" vs "continentals:" Back in the late 1800's, a lot of the old time beer hall lifters (with guts to match) used to lift the bar off the ground up to around waist level, and rest the bar on their belts or on their bellies, then continue the lift on up to the shoulders.Thenthe powers that were at the time came up with the clean, and the bar was to be taken to the shoulders in one movement. It got relaxed so that the bar could brush up against the thighs. Anyway, if you aren't training to lift OL competitively, PC's are fine, however, these days, most OL coaches teach the full squat clean right off the bat, because PC's can lead to poor pulling habits, i.e. arm bending, the bar moving forward, etc.
Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:11 am 
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I would disagree that the hang clean would replace an RDL. The RDL benefits a lot because of the slow lowering of the bar that stretches the hamstrings. THis would be completely skipped even though the concentric part is similar.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:10 am 
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Ryan, I didn't say a hang clean would replace an RDL. I said, why not take the thing off the floor, when you arrive at the point for the 2nd pull, then you're replacing an RDL., you're just arriving at that point from coming off the ground, rather than lowering the bar. Most HPC's I've seen don't really go that far down.
Now on the other hand, if you did a hang power clean from a low point, some coaches call them Barski's, i.e. lowering the bar down to the mid to lower shin position, then you are most definately replacing an RDL.
Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:20 am 
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I think it depends a lot on how comfortable/strong you are with cleans. I can straight-leg deadlift 300 lbs for reps, but I can't clean anywhere near that much. Likewise, I can military press a lot more than I can clean. Therefore, for me at least, the clean and press would be a really poor substitute for either straight-leg deadlifts or military presses, at least until my clean caught up to my other lifts.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:41 am 
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Matt, I would agree with you, especially if you have glaring imalances like you mentioned. Then train them separatel, HOWEVER, going back to the original poster's point, he wants to work the most amount of muscle in the shortest period of time, because of school exams coming up, and scheduling difficulties. I gave him suggestions on how to do this. I'm also assuming this is just for a short term thing.
Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:12 pm 
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Something you might try shorten your workouts with the most bang for the buck:

Load a barbell up to ~110-120% of your best strict standing press (% based on whatever rep range you are working in).

Then do the following sequence:

*Muscle clean*
push press + lower bar SLOWLY half-way + press back to lockout
front squat (lower bar to hang position)
SLDL to floor and back to hang
bent over row to belly button (45 degree bend good enough)
return weight to floor

(this is one rep - sets/reps up to you)

*Muscle Clean* - I know the terminology-obsessed will chime in here, so let me explain what i call a "Muscle CLean" is.

It is a clean executed using the deadlift, power-shrug and vertical row to the rack position. The movement is NOT done explosively as in the olympic style variations. The bar should move in a single fluid motion until it comes to rest in the rack position. THe goal is to use EVERY muscle you have to pull the weight from your feet to your rack. It DOES include a pulling (vertical row) motion with your arms.

If you use the weight prescribed, you will get a nice upper body workout with a good lower body warm up. Follow up the sequence described with some heavy squats or deadlifts and maybe a few vanity/isolation moves to finish up. You can crank out a very intense full body workout in less than 20 minutes using this. Doing it with very little to no rest at all between sets and you will have a good aerobic/anaerobic blend as well.

I like using the sequence in the 3-6 rep range for 4-5 sets followed by a quick 5x5 in either the squat or the deadlift.

Just my $0.02.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:19 pm 
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Hoister, good idea for a ne complex. Think I'm going to try it out tonight,but I'm going to throw P bar dips in after the bent row (I have the bars and my home made dip/chin station out on the back porch). Another good one for the arsenal. Tks. BTW, I love muscle cleans and snatches. With my arhritus, it just makes sense not to use the hips/legs as shock absorbers.
Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:28 pm 
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Hey guys,

Firstly I want to thank everyone for the input, particularly some of the info about cleans which really enlighten me. I don't think I should combine RDL, front squat and cleans all at the same time because the weight difference is too great. Although I am short of time, I still want to maxmize the training on all the muscle groups, and I think the execrises I listed should be able to do within an hour. I can potentially have military press and hang cleans combined, but wouldn't that have the "supersetting" effect? Like you can do both execrises at shorter time, but won't be able to do as much as when you seperate them, since both execrises are pretty shoulder intensive..

I also have flexibility issue.. when I clean the bar to the shoulder, with elbows directly sticking outward, the only contact points are the finger tips with my hands in a quite vulnerable position. The bar can't touch my shoulder no matter how hard I try, my bicep and brachioradialis seems to block my arm from contracting any further. I can potentially lower the elbow position to let the bar land on the shoulder, but that seems to be bad form. Also, is it necessary to full squat down to catch the bar? Or can I just clean it right onto the shoulder while remain standing?

O yeah, just one last question.. what order should I do the execrises? Largest compound execrise first? Push/Pull? Or bigger muscle groups first (like legs)?

P.S. Thanks Hoister for suggesting the muscle clean execrise, but I think it's a bit complex for me to learn all the sudden... after all, I need to save up my brain cells for the glossary =P.. But I will sure try it once I got a chance.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:41 pm 
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Why not combine them ? 1 day/week, and then split it up over the other day or two? A heavy / light type of thing, plus you would get good practice with the moves. It won't be that long before you are over exams. Just think of it as active rest, yet still maintaining.
Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:22 pm 
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Still, I want to make sure I have the flexibility to do proper cleans. Please refer to my reply above you.


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