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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:50 am 
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Hoister,
Well you could just be lucky.
Same reason some people can eat whatever they want and never suffer for it in physique (and yes these people exist).
However, measuring loading on a joint is simple physics so to say one is absolutely of heavier load is absolutely correct.
A sample size of 1 has an undefined standard deviation. That means you can say with zero confidence how this generalizes to a group of people.

Otama,
Also, I think strong core can refer to endurance so I dont think strong core should only refer to max force but also repetitive low force or anywhere in between. Otherwise the only people that should be considered strong are powerlifters because they lift the most wieght and all other athletes are weak.

Matt,
Have you actually made sure it is your "max force" core that keeps you safe while you work? Have you ever considered it is a "endurance" core that keeps you safe during everyday activities? If you haven't done a study where you control for variables it is meaningless.

I ask you, if X*Y=100, what are X and Y? Last time I checked there are infinitely many solutions which means any one of them is infinitely unlikely to be true, but you have selected one out of the hat. Can you justify that? I think th answer is no.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:30 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Actually, I was referring to both maximal strength and muscular endurance, as the two are related. This is especially true for the erectors as these muscles contract in exactly the same way (isometrically) while performing a set of squats or deadlifts (straight-back), as they do while riding a bicycle.

Also, I don't dispute that round-back lifting is inherantly more dangerous than conventional straight-back lifting, although I do think the risks are sometimes overstated.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:56 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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The problem I have with the general fitness model is that it's often applied on a ones-size-fits-all-basis to individuals with vastly different needs and goals. To me it makes a lot more sense to tailor your workouts to fit your own preferences.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:36 pm 
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Well, I could say the same about strength (max force) training,
"The problem I have with the max force approach is that it is applied as a one size fits all solution."

The truth is, there is no evidence (aside from individuals anecdotes) that support a core with more max force ability provides any additional safety against low back injury.

I agree it makes more sense to tailor your workouts, but if you do so on the wrong assumption you are going to injure yourself. It is just like assuming you can handle the volume of someone on steroids. You can't. Likewise, round back lifting puts more force than is advisable long term.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:10 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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My point is that it's impossible to build a high level of strength without also developing at least a relatively high level of muscular endurance. Meanwhile, I'm not actually advocating round-back lifting, since I don't think it's really neccessary for most people. As I said earlier, the same muscles can be developed (in terms of both stregth and endurance) isometrically through convetional straight-back lifts (which are of course safer).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:06 pm 
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Ryan,

I don't want to get into the statistics of this (even though that is my background), but i agree with both you and Otama - maybe i am lucky. Maybe i am the special cause source of variation in the statistical model that says that the opposite of what i am experiencing should be true. (Maybe i am that one flier on the scatter plot or the histogram - not sure).

I will however point out that i know of several cases - other fellow strongan competitors - that would support my claims. I had no intention of starting a debate - i was simply asking for others' opinions. I certainly did not expect to be attacked or have my claims challenged as complete "rubbish".

All i can say on the topic is this - round back lifting has helped me. I know of several other strongman competitors who swear by it as well. We are all injury free (lower back).

The results of a study are only as good as the integrity of the data from which it is drawn. The problem with that is, with all of the data you HAVE - there is much more that you DON'T have. It's all about sampling. Sample only from people who are prone to lower back injury - yes, round back lifting is not advisable. Sample a group of strongman - round back lifting is safe and for some lifts, most efficient. Sample from both - you have an entirely different sample distribution altogether.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:28 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Just out of curriosity, what type of round-back lifts do you regularly perform? The only lifts I've performed with spine articulation are Straight-leg Deadlifts (standing on a ~6" box) and Seated Cable Rows. Both were done with light to moderate weights, always stopping short of failure.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:06 pm 
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In Memoriam: TimD
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Can't answer for Hoister, but I always use a round back when doing the dog food bags and sand bags/duffel bags, and occasionally on light BB muscle snatches
Tim


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:37 pm 
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TimD summed it up. Mostly odd-object lifts.

I also apply the round back lifting technique to muscle snatches, muscle cleans, bent over rows (more like touching my toes, pulling bar up to my waist).

I also use one exercise where you bend over, reach back between your legs and pull weight from behind to in front of you between you legs.

Matt, You mentioned deads of a platform - i do something similar but pull the weight up overhead (muscle snatches from a platform, i guess you would call them).


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