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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:11 am 
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Quick Background: I played lacrosse for a while so I already had decently built legs when I started working out. I've been hitting the gym for at least 5 months now (maybe closer to 6). I mostly started because I was really skinny and I was sick of it.

Based on the responses to my previous post about Abs I've really started working on my squat and my Deadlift. I've revamped my work out to be a 4 day thing so far (I have yet to implement it, I want to see what you guys think first).

I don't mind spending 45 minutes to an hour every work out day in the gym. I've been stretching before and after each work out.

4 Days on 1 off: ABCDX repeat



Day (--1--) A
1.D.B. Chest Press / B.B.Bench Press
2.Incline Chest Press (Hammer Machine) - Incline Shoudler Raise after Warm Up
3.Cable Standing Fly / Weighted Chest Dip
4.B.B. Decline Skull Crushers
5.Push-downs (Cable)
6.Abdominal Crunch (Hammer)
7.D.B. Side Bend

Day (--2--) B
1.45 Degree Weighted Hyper-Extension
2.Chin-Ups (my body weight is sufficient currently but I will start adding weight when it is necessary)
3.Rows (Side Grip)
4.High Row (Hammer Strength)
5.B.B. Shrugs
6.D.B. Alt Curls
7.Bicep (Hammer) - Belted Preacher Curl Hammer Strength Machine


Day (--3--) C
1.Shoulder Press (Hammer Strength)
2.D.B. Lateral Raises
3.Upright B.B. Rows
4.Pec Dec Rear Delta Flys
5.Wrist Curls
6.Rev. Wrist Curls

Day (--4--) D
1.Deadlift
2.Squats
3.Reverse Calf Press
4.45 Degree Calf Raise (Sled)



A couple questions:

Is there anything more on the 4th day to bulk up my legs more?

I'm currently doing 3 sets plus a warm up (1/2 weight) of each exercise and I'm keeping my rep range below 12. Is that a good range to keep it in?

Should I be doing all my stretches before and after work out (or at least once?) or is just stretching immediately before and after the work out ok?



Thanks in advance
-Matt J.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:41 am 
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Unless you are only doing a couple sets of each, it is too much. For a 4 day split, you should have 3 off days.2 on 1 off 2 on 2 off or something like that. I would go with free weights instead of the machines. I don't think ab isolation is needed, definitely not oblique isolation. You don't need hypers since you are deadlifting. You could throw an inner thigh type thing on to leg day. 12 reps should be the absolute max. I'd go a little lower though. You only need to stretch after.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:06 am 
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Ironman wrote:
Unless you are only doing a couple sets of each, it is too much. For a 4 day split, you should have 3 off days.2 on 1 off 2 on 2 off or something like that. I would go with free weights instead of the machines. I don't think ab isolation is needed, definitely not oblique isolation. You don't need hypers since you are deadlifting. You could throw an inner thigh type thing on to leg day. 12 reps should be the absolute max. I'd go a little lower though. You only need to stretch after.


Dude, you rock. I've been doing hypers instead of deadlifting. I wasn't sure if I should have them both in. I've looked up a couple more leg and hip exercises so I've added a couple there.

Here's an example of how I've been gaining in reps/weight in case you need more info. Usually when I hit 12 reps I move up weight right away.

Reps/Weight (of course it varies depending on the exercise)

1st Day----
Set 1: 8/50
Set 2:6/50
Set 3:4/50

2nd Day----
Set 1: 10/50
Set 2: 8/50
Set 3: 6/50

3rd Day----
Set 1: 12/50
Set 2: 10/50
Set 3: 8/50

4th Day----
Set 1: 8/55
Set 2: 6/55
Set 3: 4/55

I can start logging this if it's needed.


So I should be looking at something more like this?

Week1: ABXCDXX
Week2: ABXXCDX

Day (--1--) A
1.D.B. Chest Press / B.B.Bench Press
2.Incline Chest Press (BB/DB) - Incline Shoudler Raise after Warm Up
3.Cable Standing Fly / Weighted Chest Dip
4.B.B. Decline Skull Crushers
5.Push-downs (Cable)
6.Abdominal Crunch (Hammer) (My abs aren't as built as I'd like them just yet :-P)

Day (--2--) B
1.Chin-Ups (my body weight is sufficient currently but I will start adding weight when it is necessary)
2.Rows (Side Grip) / D.B. or B.B. Bent Over Row
3.High Row (Hammer Strength) (replace with what?)
4.B.B. Shrugs
5.D.B. Alt Curls
6.Bicep (Hammer) - I like it more than the preacher curl thing - i tend not to cheat


Day (--3--) C
1.Shoulder Press (Hammer Strength)
2.D.B. Lateral Raises
3.Upright B.B. Rows
4.Pec Dec Rear Delta Flys
5.Wrist Curls
6.Rev. Wrist Curls

Day (--4--) D
1.Deadlift
2.Squats
3.Reverse Calf Press
4.45 Degree Calf Raise (Sled)
5.Hip Abduction Inward
6.Hip Abduction Outward
7.Weighted Incline Leg Raise





I don't feel like I'm over training, and I really like working out. When I don't go I feel like I'm falling out of the habit or being unproductive or something. Will those extra days off help a bunch? Would an 'ABXCDX repeat' schedule be as efficient?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:59 am 
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You'll know you're overtraining when you start getting sick, missing lifts, feeling like crap, etc. You might not think you're overtraining now but you don't have to wait for symptoms to show.

Your body builds muscle during the recovery period. You need adequate sleep and adequate rest between workouts. Even if your rotate the body parts, 4 days in a row puts undo strain on your central nervous system.

Your doing several exercises per workout with equal attention to each. That's a valid approach but you will get more bang for the buck to focus on 1 or 2 major movements per workout followed by some auxilary work.

One approach would be to use some bodyweight exercises as warmups for your major lifts. You mentioned hyperextentions and deadlifts. That's a good combination. Do an easy number of bodyweight hypers, situps, pushups, chin ups, etc for 5-10 min. Do your Deadlifts or Squats (20 min)and move to your upperbody exercise (20 min). Finish with a short (5 min)arms,sholder,calf workout. You're done in 1 hour.

If you try to focus on too much you won't be paying enough attention to the things that will make the most difference.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:12 pm 
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I don't ever do the inward/outward thing. The outer part gets worked enough during squats. For the inner part, I just do a wide stance lower body lift. Like squat or leg press, or sumo deadlift. I like 25's on sumo so it has a better ROM.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:53 pm 
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Guys,

I guess I feel like busting everyone's balls today.

Do you realize that if 4 Day Split Workouts are for anyone, they are for ADVANCED lifters?

Do you realize that a beginner donig an advanced workout makes no sense?

On the other hand, as long as you work hard you will still make progress. Don't let me discourage you.

My advice - choose a full body or 2 day split option.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:20 pm 
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Lol, good point George, I just hadn't gotten around to it. Splits like that MAY be beneficial to a bodybuilding oriented ADVANCED trainee, but makes no sense at all to me for LaCrosse preperation, and a beginner. !st off, there is 3 times as much work for upper body than lower, and it's the lower body that needs the most work, especially in a sport like LaCrosse. Upper/lower or a good over all full body should do the trick, with emphasis on push, pull, squat and basic compound moves
Tim


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:15 pm 
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Deadlifts and squats on the same day seems like overkill, unless you're doing the Rippetoe program (which has you doing only one set of Deadlifts at the end). Making the routine 2 or 3 times a week, centering each workout on Deadlifts or Squats, is probably a much better idea. Those are "leg" exercises but with a proven record of building overall strength. Doing them both the same day means one has to suffer because they both demand a lot. Splitting them on different days will let you work both harder.

I'd echo the full-body routine advice, too. The routine now is better than before but still is heavily focused on upper-body isolation work done on machines. At least it seems so to me. FWIW, I gave my friend a routine like this:

A (done Monday or Tuesday)
Squat 3x5
Standing Shoulder Press 3x5
Pendlay Rows 3x5

B (Thursday or Friday)
Deadlift 3x5
Weighted Dip 3x5
Weighted Chinup 3x5

Plus once a week one of 6 metcon workouts pulled from Crossfit WODs - Cindy, Angie, Fran, and a few others like them.

No specific ab work because there is already enough stimulation for the abs with squats, overhead pressing, deadlifts, and rows. It's a pretty complete workout, and emphasizes getting good at big compound movements. You could drop the metcons and do this A, B, A, B, etc. MWF or TThS, instead. Something like this or would take even less time than your current workout and in my opinion it's be more conducive to overall growth.

Hope this helps,

Peter


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:29 pm 
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edit: Pretty much everything I asked in this post was answered by pdellorto as I wrote it.


Last edited by Dissident on Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:02 pm 
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Thank you for all the responses.


pdellorto wrote:
A (done Monday or Tuesday)
Squat 3x5
Standing Shoulder Press 3x5
Pendlay Rows 3x5

B (Thursday or Friday)
Deadlift 3x5
Weighted Dip 3x5
Weighted Chinup 3x5


A - Legs, Shoulders (what about upright rows? could I throw them in?)
B - Legs, Lower back (Erector Spinae), General back, Chest (could I throw in incline bench? Could I exchange weighted dip with bench press and have it be just as effective?)

What does "metcons" entitle? Triceps, biceps, calfs, shrugs & stuff?

I could definately see myself picking this up - once again Pdellorto, you've been a huge help. Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:07 pm 
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what about this?

2 day split - AXXBXX or AXBX - repeat

Chest Press/Dip
Incline Shoulder Raise
Incline Chest Press
Standing Flys
BB Skull Crushers
Squats
Calf Raises
Weighted Incline Leg Raise

Deadlifts
Chin Ups
Side Rows
Shrugs
Curls
Shoulder Press
Upright Rows
Rear Delta Rows


or this?

3 day split : AXBXCX

Chest Press/Dip
Incline Shoulder Raise
Incline Chest Press
Standing Fly
BB Skull Crushers

Deadlifts
Chin Ups
Side Rows
Shrugs
Curls

Shoulder Press
Upright Rows
Rear Delta Rows
Squats
Calf Raises
Weighted Incline Leg Raise


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:01 pm 
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Dissident wrote:

What does "metcons" entitle?


metcon= metabolic conditioning


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:04 pm 
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Dissident wrote:

A - Legs, Shoulders (what about upright rows? could I throw them in?)


Military press is a better shoulder exercise than upright rows.


Last edited by stuward on Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:05 pm 
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Dissident wrote:
B - Legs, Lower back (Erector Spinae), General back, Chest (could I throw in incline bench? Could I exchange weighted dip with bench press and have it be just as effective?)


Either dips or bench are effective.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:33 pm 
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Quote:
A - Legs, Shoulders (what about upright rows? could I throw them in?)


A is a bit more than legs and shoulders. I put in links to the mian EXRX site so you can check what I'm saying here.

Squats do your legs primarily, but also involve your back, abs, etc. as stabilizers. They also encourage overall growth because they allow such a high amount of weight and demand so much effort.

Standing shoulder presses do your shoulders, primarily but also involve your back and your arms.

Pendlay rows are Bent-Over Rows where you bend at 90 degrees and de-weight the bar between reps. Emphasizes the back - look under the comments section for "Torso may be kept horizontal for stricter execution." That's basically a Pendlay row description (Folks, correct me if I'm wrong...) Anyway, your whole back gets hit with those.

You'll notice your arms get involved in both the rows and the presses. They aren't the main targets but they'll grow anyway as they assist the main target muscles.

You could throw in upright rows, but you probably wouldn't need them - they aren't going to hit any muscles you aren't already hard working in this. The Bruce Lee quote I like to use is "Daily decrease, not daily increase - hack away at the unessential." Which is better, doing 3x5 of Bent Over Rows hard, or saving some intensity and doing another exercise for essentially the same muscles? The prevailing wisdom here is that it's the former.

Quote:
B - Legs, Lower back (Erector Spinae), General back, Chest (could I throw in incline bench? Could I exchange weighted dip with bench press and have it be just as effective?)


Deadlifts do basically everything from your legs to your upper back. This wikipedia entry has a pretty exhaustive lift of what it'll hit.

Dips do the same stuff bench pressing does - chest and arms mostly. But they also require lots of stabilization of your body - and as a plus spotters aren't needed.

But yes, sure, you can Bench instead! Go for it. I put dips in because my friend can dip (he was doing 2 x 20 unweighted sets) and his college gym often has a queue for the bench press stations...and the dip bars get dusty. I mean, I bench instead of dipping (no place to dip at my gym)...

Chins hit the arms and back pretty well. Check here for all sorts of ways to do weighted chins. I do close-grip underhands myself.

All in all, I think these two days hit the entire body pretty thoroughly. Maybe not every angle on every muscle on each day, but all of your muscles end up working together and working hard twice a week.

I actually was going to give him either the Rippetoe or Mahler routine (check the basic routines sticky) but settled on this after a lot of thought and some discussion with the guys here and with my friend. Those two routines are also really good for basic strength overall strength, and their leg/push/pull layout is what made me settles on those.

FWIW, my routine is different - pressed for time, I can only ensure access to the weights once a week so I do this:
http://exrx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=13611#13611
...along with MMA training and 4 crossfit WODs (Workout of the Day) a week.

Quote:
What does "metcons" entitle? Triceps, biceps, calfs, shrugs & stuff?


Sorry. Metcon is short for "metabolic conditioning." It basically means exercises done at a high intensity, for time. I picked up the term from Crossfit.

For example, one of the ones I gave him was Cindy:
Max rounds in 20 minutes of:
5 pullups
10 pushups
15 squats

...you start a stopwatch and go for it, stop when the timer runs out. Kipping pullups preferably for speed and more overall work.

Another I gave him was Fran
21-15-9 for time of:
Barbell Thrusters, 95#
Pullups

Do 21 thrusters, 21 pullups, 15 thrusters, etc. for time. Elite crossfitters aim for a sub-3 minute performance...I do it in like 10 minutes. :D

I also suggested this one:
21-18-15-12-9-6-3 for time:
55# kettlebell/dumbbell swings
Pullups

Metcons aim at working you really hard, really fast, with proper technique. Really good workouts in a short amount of time. Deceptively hard. Cindy sounds really easy, but the first time I did it I was really crushed afterwards.

The metcons help my friend hit his stated goal of being that guy at the gym everyone stares at like he's crazy.

Whatever you settle on, a few choice compound exercises done hard will carry you further than a bunch of exercises aimed at hitting everything specifically.

Hope this helps,

Peter


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