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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:22 pm 
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Can you drag a sled, should be pretty easy to make one if you dont have one already.

If you have a pulley unit that reaches the floor, pull throughs are a good all purpose posterior chain exercise. I have done those before and had good success.

I really think squatting is the best workout though. If you get stale switch to front squats or box squats for 3 weeks or add bands or something.

I spend a lot of time on the GHR. When I was lifting my best I would do speed box squats with bands once per week and then do a max effort day as follows:
box squat 1-2 weeks in a row
take a week off
deadlift or front squat
This was just an outline and I went a lot be feel.
If I took a week off, I would just do accessory work. work in some olympic stuff sometimes. I know the westside guys do a lot of GM's but I never felt good about them and always got more out of GHR than GM's and RDL's as well. My lack of results with GM's could be that I use a high bar placement so I am very upright.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:15 pm 
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In Memoriam: TimD
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Peter, most people do the GM wrong, it's not just a simple matterof putting the bar on your neck and bowing down. here is a good piece on it.
http://jva.ontariostrongman.ca/GMOB.htm
Notice how the butt is way back, the bar is lower on the traps and the bar is pretty much over the center of gravity.
And yes. DB (or KB) swing and snathes have some very good carry over as related to power.
Tim


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:27 am 
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TimD - I should have known JV Askeem would have an excellent article on Good Mornings on his site. I read it, and one question occurs to me - what's the advantage of doing Good Mornings that way vs. doing RDLs? It seems like the main different is bar position. Otherwise, start at the top, bend the knees slightly, push the hips back as you descend. I'm doing them a bit differently now but I'll change it...I don't think I push the hips back far enough now that I read his page.

FWIW I'm not placing the bar on my neck, but on my traps. But I have no spotters...and I worry about ditching the weight off of my back when I'm under it. I'm sure that will hold back my poundages as I take it really slow and very careful and worry about putting on too much. With an RDL, I know the worst result is I have to set the bar down...but I'm not sure I'll get the back workout I need. Maybe I should try to see if there is a way to do them in the rack, so I can ditch at the bottom if I have to...not sure if I have the space.

Glad the snatches will help, too - I find barbell snatches really difficult with my current setup but dumbbell snatches are no problem. And I'll keep at the dumbbell swings, they really hit my back and thighs nicely.

Hmm...I've sort of hijacked Hoister's thread for my own purposes. Sorry about that Hoister - it's on topic, but doesn't address your needs...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:33 am 
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PDell, as to the difference between them and RDL's, not much. As JV points out, he used it to work around shoulder problems and it does save on the grip. It's basically an RDL done with the bar on the back. Good for variation as well. Also, I know that a lot of proponents of the Westside Barbell club use them a lot.
Tim


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:56 am 
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Quote:
I am a little concerned with Good Mornings for strength. I’ve done them at around 20kg, but never higher. Putting more weight than that on my upper back and bowing over worries me - I work out alone so I’m leery of exercises that put lots of weight over the back of my neck like that.


Peter,

Tim, as always, provided, some good information on them from JV Askem.

I started out doing them with 95 lbs a few years. The main thing is to ease into the exercise.

Quote:
Is there another alternative, like perhaps doing Stiff-Legged Deadlifts or something else?


There is a pretty good menu of lower back exercises to select from. The main thing is to provide you lower back with enough recovery time.

As we've discussed, the lower back overtrain easily.

Quote:
As for Olympic pulls, will one-handed versions transfer enough? My gym has standard weights and standard bars only, and no place to ditch. Partial barbell cleans are fine, anything more is tricky. What I’ve been doing instead is one-handed work - dumbbell snatches, dumbbell cleans, dumbbell push jerks, the dumbbell swings I mentioned before, push presses, etc. instead of barbell clean & jerks, barbell snatches, etc. Obviously the weight I’m snatching/cleaning/etc. each rep is much lower -like 45% of my barbell weights. Will I benefit from that?


Yes. Unilateral movements are an effective method of increasing strength. Variety is one of the keys to making progress.

Kenny Croxdale

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Thanks TimD.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:27 am 
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Kenny,
Is there a relationship between the weight, sets and reps used for the good morning with respect to the same for your target deadlift weight? i.e. - your good mornings should be trained at X-lbs for A-reps and B-sets, where x=% of 1RM in your deadlift?

Just curious if there is a correlation - like i know my overhead press max is usually 80-85% of my bench - I can use that lift to train for the bench without having to bench at a regular frequency.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:23 pm 
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Are you talking about Military Presses or Push Presses? I can only Push Press about 70% of my Bench Press 1RM, but then again my Push Press is pretty close to a strict Military Press with relatively little leg drive.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:18 am 
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Matt Z wrote:
Are you talking about Military Presses or Push Presses? I can only Push Press about 70% of my Bench Press 1RM, but then again my Push Press is pretty close to a strict Military Press with relatively little leg drive.


Yes strict press, no leg drive. My push press actually exceeds my bench press. I am not sure by how much as i haven't tested my bench as of late.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:13 pm 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:

Peter,

Tim, as always, provided, some good information on them from JV Askem.

I started out doing them with 95 lbs a few years. The main thing is to ease into the exercise.


Thanks. I'll do that. I'm at 20kg on them right now. I'll increase very slowly and ensure I'm doing them correctly.

I love deadlifting, and I'm not going to stop doing them entirely, but for the next month or so I'll do crossfitty stuff with other exercises that hit my weak points - my grip, my lower back, my abs. Right now it's looking like Turkish get-ups (which exactly mimic the standup technique I use in fights, too), dumbbell snatches, low-weight Good Mornings in my barbell complex and RDLs in my dumbbell complex, back extensions on the floor, dumbell swings, V-Ups, Knees-to-Elbows, Push Presses...plus the usual squats, pushups, and chinups. I'm trying to err on the side of power exercises and metcon workouts for the next month.

So my back's going to get a lot of work...I'll be careful not to overdo it.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
As we've discussed, the lower back overtrain easily.


Yes. I will be careful; I have been, it's just that like I said, as I've deadlifted more weight one week hasn't been enough...especially since my lower back get used on other days.

In three months, I managed to learn to straight-bar deadlift properly and go from 2x5/70kg in bad form to 2x5/117.5kg in good form at a bodyweight of 85kg. My goal was a 1RM of 1.5x bodyweight and I can do that now. I think a short break until after my fight will be fine, and then I can try to structure a good deadlift program to bring my results (and thus my takedown and clinch power) up further.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
As for Olympic pulls, will one-handed versions transfer enough?

Yes. Unilateral movements are an effective method of increasing strength. Variety is one of the keys to making progress.


Sweet.

Thanks for the help,

Peter


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:00 pm 
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Quote:
Hoister wrote:
Kenny,
Is there a relationship between the weight, sets and reps used for the good morning with respect to the same for your target deadlift weight? i.e. - your good mornings should be trained at X-lbs for A-reps and B-sets, where x=% of 1RM in your deadlift?


Train it like you would any other exercise.

Quote:
Just curious if there is a correlation - like i know my overhead press max is usually 80-85% of my bench - I can use that lift to train for the bench without having to bench at a regular frequency.


There probably is a correlation. But you probably need to play with it to see what correlation best fits you.

Kenny Croxdale

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 Post subject: Time is Irrelevent
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:11 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:51 pm 
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Interesting article, but I don't like the idea of doing Good Mornings with a rounded back.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:19 pm 
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Nor do I. They're not for everyone. Bill Starr, Hoffman, Smith et al have written scads of articles on just that.
Roundback lifting is not for everyone. Some lifters have great success with it, big deadlifts etc.
Some lifters.

I still think the round back good morning is a fine exercise, given that the trainee uses his head to select sane poundages that
match his current strength and takes into consideration his own body structure
and possible weaknesses. Of course,
most fools fall for the ever popular balls-to-the-wall silliness,
even with their auxiliary movements.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:22 pm 
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Ooops, I forgot to mention -
great board and thanks for making all this info available.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:13 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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I think it I were going to do round-back lifting, I'd much prefer something like a Straight-leg Deadlift. Then, if something went wrong, I could just bend my knees and put down the barbell (or drop it) ... something that's more difficult with Good Mornings.


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