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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:36 pm 
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Every single workout routine I try and create takes over an hour and a half to do no matter what I try even if I do movements that are not using the same muscles right after another exercise.

1. Does it matter how many hours your in the weightroom? I know it does for me because it makes me change up my routine and try to make it shorter.

2. How many exercises, sets, reps, and rest is usually done to be done in an hour or less (I am looking for a majority)?

I posted this question on another mb and they said get whatever you need to get done, but for me...being in the weightroom too long discourages me to keep training; therefore, I end up changing my routine to try and make it shorter. I hate having to do that. I want something I can stick with and not take forever in the weightroom.

These are the movements I know and I want to include them all because they are very important (I train by movement and not by muscle)...

Note: There is a couple by muscle ones because some exercises do not include a certain muscle like the serratus anterior and external rotation. Most of the exercises and movements are internal rotation.

Glute Max/Med Activation (usually done as apart of the warm up)
Scapular: Depressors/Retractors/Elevators
External Rotation
Serratus Anterior
Upper Body Horizontal: Push/Pull
Upper Body Vertical: Push/Pull
Quad/Hip Dominant
Core: Lower RA/Upper RA/Rotation/Lateral Flexion/Stabilization/Compression

Other than the glute max/med activation, out of all the movements there would be like 17 exercises all together. Some can be done right after the other in between sets and some cannot and needs rest between the sets. I don't think a deadlift can have anything between its set and would need rest. I am not sure.

What movements are really not that important and are actually included in other movements? All these movements you see I have found on websites when looking for movements for the lower body, upper body, scapular, and torso.

I think my only option would be splitting them into a Mon/Thurs, Tue/Fri, which would be like 8 exercises per session. The only worry I have is a 3 days rest at the end of the week for all the movements. After Thursday, those movements would be Friday, sat, and Sun rest. After Fridays would be Sat, Sun, and Mon rest.

I want to do something I can actually stick with and not want to change because its too much for me.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:38 am 
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The "rule of thumb" is to keep workouts short, under 1 hour. Partly this is for motivation reasons as you've mentioned, the other is hormonal response. After about 1 hour of exercising (not counting warmup) you are no longer building muscle but are starting to consume muscle. (Not exactly but that's the general effect).

Many of the small muscle exercises you do I assume are part of your workout.

As an example I set up my workout in phases:
General core warmup (5 min)
Conditioning (5 min - exercise the body parts not in my main exercises at warmup level, usually bodyweight)
Power (10 min) - 1 olympic exercise complementary to my main exercises.
Strength (30 min) - The main part of my workout, 2 exercises rotating according to my split. These are compound heavy barbell exercises.
Repetition (10 min) - 2-3 exercises to further work the same muscles in my strength phase. This is usually a machine or cable exercise.
GPP - whole body exercise (10 min) I do farmer's walks here.

You can see that my total workout is 70 minutes, 60 not counting warmup.

I split the strength phase upper lower and further split it Quad/Ham and horizontal/vertical.

This allows me to work the whole body every workout but I only work each part heavy every 4 workouts.

This is a long way of saying that you don't have to do everything every workout. Do the important stuff every time and rotate around the stuff that you don't have to do every time.

Stu


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:47 am 
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caangelxox wrote:
1. Does it matter how many hours your in the weightroom? I know it does for me because it makes me change up my routine and try to make it shorter.


What I've seen repeated in many places, and which seems to be true for me, is that you want a workout that is less than 1 hour. I don't know if this includes all warmups. Mine are usually a bit more than an hour once you factor in mobility drills and warmups, but not by much.


caangelxox wrote:
2. How many exercises, sets, reps, and rest is usually done to be done in an hour or less (I am looking for a majority)?


That will depend very heavily on:

- the rep tempo you use (explosive lifting is fast, super-slow is super slow...)
- the rest between sets
- the time to change stations/change weights/change whatever.

For example, my workout last Monday had me do deadlifts. I did 10 x 10kg RDLs, 5 x 10kg deadlifts, 5 x 50kg deadlifts, 3 x 60kg, 3 x 70kg, 1 x 80kg, 5 x 90kg. 1 minute rest between sets except between the 80kg and 90kg, which was 3 minutes. All together this took about 10 minutes. If I'd stuck to my usual 3 x 5 with 5 minutes rest, after I spent 9 minutes warming up followed by a 3 minute rest, I'd have spent about 11 minutes doing my work sets. Then 1-2 minutes to take the bar apart and put the weights back.

On the other hand, Thursday I did 5 sets of 3 reps of jump squats. With 60 seconds of rest between sets, that took less than 6 minutes total.

caangelxox wrote:
I posted this question on another mb and they said get whatever you need to get done, but for me...being in the weightroom too long discourages me to keep training; therefore, I end up changing my routine to try and make it shorter. I hate having to do that. I want something I can stick with and not take forever in the weightroom.


A shorter workout is good. I agree with "whatever you need to get done" but if the program takes too long to do in good form with proper intensity, it's too much to get done.

caangelxox wrote:
These are the movements I know and I want to include them all because they are very important (I train by movement and not by muscle)...


Here is part of your problem. You've got every movement you can think of in here. All of them, except maybe articulations for your feet and neck and hands.

caangelxox wrote:
Glute Max/Med Activation (usually done as apart of the warm up)
Scapular: Depressors/Retractors/Elevators
External Rotation
Serratus Anterior
Upper Body Horizontal: Push/Pull
Upper Body Vertical: Push/Pull
Quad/Hip Dominant
Core: Lower RA/Upper RA/Rotation/Lateral Flexion/Stabilization/Compression


That's a lot right there. Do you really need a separate exercise for each one? If I recall correctly from your earlier posts, you usually do multiple sets of around 10 reps per exercise. 17 movements x 3 sets x 10 reps = 510 reps per workout. That's a lot of work.

You can do a few things.

1) Focus on a smaller number of movements. Look at the beginner and intermediate routines, and the routines of some of the more advanced folks here. They rarely do a boatload of exercises, they do a smaller number of big movements.

2) Use less sets. If you're going to do 17 movements, you probably don't want to do 3 sets of each one.

3) Schedule by the week, not the workout. In other words, if you feel like you need to do all of these movements, split them. Do your vertical push and pull one day, the horizontal push and pull another, and do legs on both days. If you want, pull all the "extras" - core, rotator cuff work, shoulder articulations - and put them on a separate day. They aren't generally that taxing, so you can use them as much for active recovery as for exercise.

4) Find any overlap you possibly can and milk it. Olympic lifting and jumping exercises are good for this, because they will use multiple articulations. So are big compound lifts. A clean-and-jerk is a lot more than just a pull from the floor followed by a press. A high box jump isn't just a hip-dominant exercise. A deadlift isn't just a vertical pull. It also does your abs isometrically, ticking off some of the "core" work you need off your to-do list.

You can use those methods separately or together.

caangelxox wrote:
I think my only option would be splitting them into a Mon/Thurs, Tue/Fri, which would be like 8 exercises per session. The only worry I have is a 3 days rest at the end of the week for all the movements. After Thursday, those movements would be Friday, sat, and Sun rest. After Fridays would be Sat, Sun, and Mon rest.


That can be a good idea. Schedule by the week, or even two weeks.

caangelxox wrote:
I want to do something I can actually stick with and not want to change because its too much for me.


You do seem to have a bit of "paralysis by analysis" here. The most important thing with working out is to do it. Even a workout that's a little unbalanced that you do is better than a perfectly balanced workout you don't.

Would it help if someone else gave you a workout, instead of designing it yourself? Some people just feel a lot better getting a workout handed to them. I know I feel that way when I train MMA...although I'm capable of designing my own workout (and do often), I'm very happy to shut off my brain and do what my coach scribbled down on his menu sheet too. I can just say "Whatever it says on that sheet, that's what I'm doing" and trust he's written a complete set of drills.

Maybe you can find someone to help with your program design. Numerous reputable coaches offer the service in person or on the web, although it's somewhat costly...

Hope that helps,

Peter


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:52 am 
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caangelxox wrote:
2. How many exercises, sets, reps, and rest is usually done to be done in an hour or less (I am looking for a majority)?


Depending on your goals, you should generally do about 15 to 25 sets per workout not counting warm up sets. The lower end of the range is for heavy compound exercises, the higher end is for circuit type training.

For strength training reps should be close to 25 per body part. 3x8, 5x5, 2x12, 6x4, etc.

Rest between sets will also differ according to your goals. Shorter rest periods provide more metabolic conditioning benefits while longer rests are better for strength training. That's the reason the strength phase of my workout takes longer than the other phases.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:26 pm 
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is this plan good...

Mon/Wed/Fri would have 7 movements (quad/hip dominant, upper body horizontal/vertical push/pull, and the glute activation/glute medius activation (done first & also part of warm up after hip flexor stretching).

Tue/Thurs/Sat would have 11 movements. Scapular/Rotator Cuff/Serratus Anterior would be like 5 exercises + possible forearm/wrist curls and wrist turns and also elbow (bicep curls/triceps overhead extension) and the wrist/forearm/elbow work will probably be done (light weight) between the core work sets. and for the core work, there are 6 movements (lower RA, upper RA, rotation, lateral flexion, stabilization, compression). There's also extension, but I don't think I need that movement.

Note that "rotation" will be changed to mon/wed/fri workout once the gym opens up again, which would be when school starts in the middle of feb for spring semester. I only want to be in the fitness center 3 days a week.



Goal until middle of feb is getting rid of my flat butt, getting rid of my side imbalance (when I stand on my right leg, it wobbles and my weight wants to shift to the legt leg. Even if I try and do a bent over squat and keep my balance, my weight shifts over my left side when going down and back up. When I stand up straight without holding any dumbbells and stand loose, my body tilts to the left side a little. When I hold a dumbbell in my left hand only, I stand up straight. When I hold a dumbbell in my right hand only, I have a really notice tilt to my right side), get rid of the tight hip flexors, and get stronger middle/lower trapz (TYWL's will take care of that) and also wall slides. I am also going to do one legged sit squats (sitting and then getting up on one leg) for any quad imbalance I may have.


I am hoping hip thrusts, side planks, lifts and chops (dumbbells), torso twists (dumbbells), glute max/med activation work, TYWL's, wall slides, hip flexor stretching, MB twist throws.....will all help with it. My goal is by the middle of feb to have this all fixed up and ready to start my real workout when the gym opens up again.

My goal after this goal is to fix any imbalances my side imbalances gave me between my right and left side.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:52 pm 
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@caangelxox:

I would dread going to the gym if I thought about my workouts half as much as you seem to do.

Goals are important, but you don't have to engage in micromanagement to get to them.

Have some fun at the gym - leave all the stress outside.

Good luck, and happy training.


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