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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:23 pm 
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Apprentice
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So I'm thinking I'm gonna do a Upper/Lower Split, 3 days a week.
Probably like LxUxLxx UxLxUxx

Upper
Deadlift
Decline Bench
Pullups
Seated DB Shoulder Press
DB Bicep Curl

Lower
Squat
SLDL
Standing Calf Raises
Abs (Probably decline weighted sit-ups)

I'm trying to strike a balance between bulking and strength, so I figured 3x8 might be a good way to go?

I was wondering whether Deadlifts and Pullups would be sufficient work for my back, particularly my upper back. I could do rows, but I worry about adding too many exercises.

As for the SLDL, I have very little flexibility in my hamstrings. With a straight back, I can barely get my fingers about 2/3 the way down my shin. With a good warm-up and if I round my back I can barely touch my toes for a second. Bad I know. Do you guys think this will be a problem. If so, any suggestions? Also, any tips or pointers on the SLDL in general would be helpful since I've never really done it before.

Any advice on my routine/SLDL would be awesome.

Thanks.
-Heb


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:28 pm 
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Don't worry about going low on the SLDL. Keep your back straight and come back up before you lose the arch in your back. Each time try to get a little lower and your hamstrings will improve.

I prefer deadlifts on lower body day but that's just my preference. Horizontal rows are important to include in your routine and you should do your overhead press standing. It gives your back a little more work since you have to stabilize your torso. On lower body day you probably have time to add lunges, I'd suggest early as a warmup.

Stu


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:22 pm 
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Thanks. Do you think adding DB Bent-over rows without removing any exercises would be too much?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:28 pm 
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If you do 3x8 for all you are probably pushing the envelope but I don't think it's unreasonable. I think 3x8 for deadlifts is too much though. I would ramp my way up to 1 set of 5 reps. I don't think a lot of volume in deadlifts is a good idea.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:59 am 
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Just curious, why would high volume for deadlifts not be a good idea?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:44 am 
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It's stressful. A little goes a long way. It's harder on the body than any other exercise. The benefit of additional sets is outweighed by the additional recovery required, at least if you are doing them heavy enough. That's why Mark Rippetoe only put 1 set in his Starting Strength program and many powerlifters don't even train deadlift. Kenny could probably speak to this better than I can. I cut and pasted the following quote from his "No Deadlift" article.

"Why do an exercise that takes more than it gives back?" - Louis Simmons

Stu


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:21 pm 
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More on what Stu was saying, typically as you go through reps of an exercise your form tends to give out and in general your muscles tend to get fatigued. Deadlifts demand alot out of your lower back and legs (depending on which one you do). As we all know the back is very suseptible to injury. If your muscles like the erector spinae were to give out. That can cause serious back injury.

I knew this kid who was 17, he went on a rampage of doing deadlifts for a whole month straight for a powerlifting competition. Ended up with a buldge disc in his back and can not do anything like that anymore. Never think more is better when it comes to deadlifting.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:30 pm 
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Cool, thanks a lot for the heads-up. I guess I'll decrease reps and increase weight for a couple of workouts until I can do 1x5 heavy but with good form. So if deadlifts are so taxing, is it a good idea to do them every other workout. As it stands, I'll be doing them once a week some weeks, but twice a week other weeks. For context, I'm still relatively new and I've only been doing deadlifts for like 3 and 1/2 months (i started off with Rippertoe).


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:38 pm 
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Depends on the intensity, if you go for a very heavy intense workout then only do it every 1-2 weeks. If its a lite day then you can do it twice a week, but I'd recommend both be lite. Never more though.

If you havn't already, buy yourself a lifting belt that $40 now can save you thousands later.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:01 pm 
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Thanks I'll keep that in mind.

Are injuries really that common with the DL?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:27 pm 
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TheHeb wrote:
Are injuries really that common with the DL?


No, because not too many people do them.

The worse injuries that I've ever gotten from deads were scraped shins. ;-)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:26 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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I think the DL is taking a bit of stick here... :-P

Firstly, I agree that doing a high amount of reps per set i.e. more than 5 would do more harm than good. I believe this is because with the deadlift being a whole body exercise, in some way or another using every muscle in your body, especially legs and back that as your reps increase your weaknesses will become obvious very quickly. Everyone has weaknesses and whole body exercises done for reps will cause whatever is weak to give out as fatigue kicks in - this is why i believe form breaks down after about 5 reps. Think that's basically what Ironmaiden said?

Anyway, my point is, sets of 8, i agree- yes, too many reps (per set). But 5x5, 8x3, etc I think is perfect (under 5 reps).

I also agree that if you are lifting some very heavy weights and / or are an advanced lifter, having spent a lot of your up and coming years dead lifting, preferably competing, then training the deadlift by 'not training it' could be the best thing you could do.

But there are probably some very varied opinions on what is classified as 'heavy weights' and 'advanced lifters'.

I think that most recreational lifters, and especially intermediate or beginner level lifters (not complete beginner, but someone who has grooved the movements and got used to the intensity of lifting in general) would benefit from dead lifting more, assuming they would actually perform it correctly...

can't help but throw in some functional stuff, but it's pretty obvious that most recreational lifters need more posterior chain work now-a-days, too....

So i guess to summarise I would say - for some people, more is better and for others, less is more.

Regarding lifting belts - good for heavy singles or doubles over 90% but for sets of 8, a great way to help you get injured :-P Why would your muscles work properly if a belts doing their job for them? (over time, obviously)

I know most people basically said what I just said in some form or other, but it's an issue close to my heart. Some of my training is in a commercial gym and some is in a PL club. Just about every time I DL in the commercial gym I seem to get at least one person telling why I shouldn't go as heavy with it, or how it will wreck my back. Then you back to the PL club and there's a 56 year old guy dead lifting (club owner), squatting and benching every week, heavy and with 100% intensity - If I can do anything like what he can at his age then i'l be an extremely happy guy...

Everyones different :-)

KPj


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:38 am 
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As for the OP...

If you want a good balance between strength and size, one thing you could experiment with in terms of sets and reps is what I THINK is called 'the stage system'.

I do it myself for DL's and a lot of other exercises, but I don't do it exclusively i.e. for every exercise... An example would be

deadlift - 3x3 and 3x5

To explain, that's 3 sets of 3, then 3 sets of 5 for deadlift. So 6 sets in total.

I think that, really, the logic is that after the first 3 sets of 3, your sets of 5 would be heavier than they would of been, had you only done sets of 5.

I like it because for the first 3 sets, it's all out strength. After that your done, basically. You then go for 2 sets of 5, lighter weight so it feels easier than i you were to do another few triples.

Also, if you look at the amount of reps in total - 24.

Then total reps for 3 x 8 - 24.

So "Volume" is the same. The only thing that is less than that of a typical mass building program is the 'time under tension' - which is where sets of 8 comes from. Time under tension and DL's dont mix, lol, you rip it up, and slam it down as quickly as possible!

But anyway, whilst time under tension may be lower, Volume is the same and weight is obviously much higher than if you were doing 3 x 8...


Just an example of another way to skin the cat :-)

KPj


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:59 am 
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Quote:
Think that's basically what Ironmaiden said?

Yep


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:42 am 
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The Crossfit folks actually do a lot of high-rep DLs. But the most weight I've seen on any non-max-effort workout (not singles, triples, or fives for max weight) is 1.5x bodyweight for a descending ladder of 10-1 reps. Usually it's 135# or 225#. Still hard, if you're able to pull much higher weights it's not going to strain you as much as maximum effort will.

Even then, when I do those workouts, my body pays for it. DLs take a lot out of you. They give a lot back, but yeah, it's possible to push them too hard. I think I went a couple weeks too long on my last cycle of 3x5 deadlifts. I got a really nice PR at the end of it, but I paid for it with a loooong recovery time. :)

Peter


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