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 Post subject: rep range strength gain
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:11 am 
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I've read kpjs post when he was advising peter what he should do either cutting intensity or volume. He said he does the 5 rep range. What does that do for you? I though 8-12 reps was hypertropy? My goal is to be huge huge huge scary grab your kids and run huge. I'm not even close I think I need to change it up a bit. My sets for everything usually start with one warm up set of really light weight and just a few reps then 12 reps one set 10 reps the other 8 reps the last while gradually upping the weight. Is doing the crazy heavy with 5 rep range beneficial? Like I want to make the incredible hulk look like a child how do I get that way, minus steroids minus genetic potential crap what makes you big weight reps and workouts. KPJ feel free to chime in here with your weight training opinion throw some numbers out there and gains of yours if you don't mind. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:26 am 
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All rep ranges have their benefits. Number one, from what I get from KPj and the 5 rep range, is that it's more strength geared, and I doubt if one of his major goals is to be Scary Huge.
Different tools for different jobs. As a general rule, and this is very general, and is generally based on time under tension rather than reps,
but 1-5 reps are generally neural in nature, going for strength. 8-12 is normally listed for hypertrophy, as those fiber types stressed tend to hypertrophy more easily than the fibers stressed in neural training (type IIA's and IIB's, I get em mixed up, so don't ask-I don't want to look it up, but there is a great article on bodybuilding.com on this). Anything more than that is usually endurance related. Does this mean you can't get scary huge using 5's? No, of course not, I've witnessed it over and over. In fact, the range that has worked best for me personally, during periods when I was trying to put on weight, was in the 5-8 rep range, kind of straddling the border of strength/hypertrophy, followed by a "back-off" set or two of lowered weight and getting 10-12 reps with it to near failure .
Tim


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:57 am 
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There is a handy chart about rep ranges from the 1st edition of Starting Strength. This isn't the only place for this information, and sadly the 2nd edition lacks this chart, but here it is:

http://www.startingstrength.com/first/f ... ple200.pdf

Essentially, sets of 5 are help up as a good balance between hypertrophy, maximal strength, CNS adaptation, stamina, and so on.

I use sets of 5 a lot myself...I started before I started posting here, but after I did I learned why I seemed to gain better and faster on 5-rep sets than on 10 rep sets, so I tend to err on the side of "if I'm not sure, do 5-rep sets." Oh yeah, and Ironman made fun of my higher-rep range stuff so I had to change so he'd stop ripping on my workout plans. :)

Hope that helps,

Peter


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:25 am 
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Note that, according to the chart, 5 reps is better for myofibrial hypertrophy while the higher reps were better for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. The former is functional, very important in Peter's case, the latter is appearance and size, more important for John.

John, if you want to be huge, you should do both. The low reps/high weights will make you stronger and that will lead to heavier weights in the high rep workouts leading to hulk like effects. You should cycle between high volume/low intensity and high intensity/low volume in order to shift focus back and forth between size and strength. That should improve both over the long run. Of course now that football is ramping up you should spend more effort on your sport specific skills like sprints and agility.

Stu


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:49 am 
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football will be two practices a week and one game once that gets here. I talked to the coach and he said I should continue what I'm doing because there isn't going to be two a days or any extreme running so it shouldn't effect my weight training program too much. I have noticed recently size gains in my quads hams and glutes and more definition in my tricep it is almost a perfect horseshoe now (when I flex it) but thats amazing. So what you guys are saying is I should go back and forth between 5 reps and my normal 12-10-8 sets. How should i do that? Keep a heavy weight i can do 5 times and just do like 4 sets of 5? Also a question on grip with deads i do not use the wrist straps that i bought for that purpose because i want to develope my grip and yes i love the manly calloused hands haha but when i do my final set on deads of 325 my grip goes by the completion of the fith rep. I was pi$$ed so i went back to the weight and did an additional rep but that was all I could do. I hate having a weak grip and want to do what I plan on doing Should I to towel pull ups that i heard someone mention to increase grip?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:53 am 
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also a funny thing about that chart is my works computer security lists that as sport oriented so its blocked to me. :( I do not know when I'll get a new home computer. Who ever hears of a mother board frying? AMAZING.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:13 am 
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What I would do in your case is a strength program for about 4 weeks, then switch to a high volume program for 4 weeks and rotate. Examples of each would be Madcow's 5x5 for strength and German Volume Training for size. I'm not saying that these would be best, they're just examples. 12,10,8 is a popular general purpose rep scheme but it's really neither strength of hypertrophy. There are probably better options out there.

For deadlifts, use straps on your final set.

http://dieselcrew.com/ has lots of good ideas on grip strength training. They're the experts on it.

One simple way to train grip is to pinch 2 25# plates together, smooth side out and trying to hold on to them for more than a second or 2.

there are lots of ideas in this article: http://www.dieselcrew.com/articles/Leit ... aining.pdf

Stu


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:18 am 
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As far as general rep range info goes, I agree with everything said so far.

Also, As Tim said, getting huge isn't a goal of mine. It's actually detrimental to what I love most - lifting above my body weight.

As for numbers, my 'latest best' DL was 418lbs, (190kg) for 2 reps at a body weight of 165lbs.

My squat struggles behind 360lbs (165kg), 2 reps.

My bench is my weakest link 242lbs (110kg). I've maxed full ROM bench press once in the last 2 years (at least) - had previous shoulder issues so had to take it very slowly.

All of these lifts are at 165lbs, and the squat and Deadlift are 2 reps because my one rep max before those lifts were less than the numbers for 2 reps. Nothing to shout about (yet!).

I've been deadlifting for just over a year, and deadlifting from the floor for about 9 months (didn't have the flexibility). You can probably tell it's my favorite exercise. Shamefully I didn't deadlift (or squat much)for the 3ish years before that.

In terms of bodyweight... Don't know where to start. Bit of a rollercoaster, but here goes...

Before I started training I was 130lbs. I'm 5'7 and small boned. At this weight i looked 'toned' and not sickly skinny. I trained to get bigger using a typically bad body part split. After around 6 months I got to around 150lbs. After that I struggled on to 'peak' (LOL) at 155-160 (very lean), then I started getting all sorts of issues and finished with a wealth of imbalances, partial RC tear and impingement. Weight fell back to 140lbs, but with more fat than I ever had (always been lean / skinny).

After 9 months of 'doing stupid things' (and getting obsessed with anatomy and strength), I got my act together, got back into it, by that time had realised that I loved lifting heavier more than getting heavier. Fixed injuries whilst changing goals.

I lost most of the fat I put on in about 3 months, just from the increased activity and cutting crap from my diet i.e. no focus on fat loss.

Training my new strength focused way, my weight flew up to 160lbs, but this was also lost mass from before so you can't take anything from that. Since then, my weight has steadily crept up to 165-170 and keeps going. I don't even feel I eat enough to support hypertrophy so this continues to surprise me. The lifts I mentioned above were 2 months ago and my weight just now is just short of 170. I will let my weight get to around 175-180, then i'm going to cut it back to as close as 165 whilst maintaining strength and do my first comp... That's the plan anyway...

* takes deep breath *

There's a good article on T-nation from Christian Thibaudeau. It's good because this guy is hypertrophy focused (and does it well), but he mentions in the article how his best gains have came from going onto a typical hypertrophy work out AFTER a strength based program...

http://www.t-nation.com/article/bodybui ... thibaudeau

Just remember the saying "the best program is the one your not doing" - don't know who said it, but it's so true....


KPj


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:35 am 
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I probably went off subject slightly their...

My rep range varies and my programs change every 4 weeks, big exercises change every 2 weeks so I need to give you a general answer.

I much prefer training in 3 and under rep range but typically train in 1-5 range. This primarily increases my strength, but almost as a side affect, is putting my b/w up...

I actually sort of can't be bothered with anything higher than 5 reps. But my assistance exercises are typically anywhere from 8-15. My only motivation to do higher reps is because I want ot be in all round good shape, too. Good flexibility, agility, balance, stability, and decent endurance, although you want catch me going for a run, Sprints, yes. Run - no chance. Unless it's football / soccer or boxing. I've dabbled with interval training. But prefer to keep my diet clean to keep my fat in check.

I use assistance exercises to cover anything from 'prehab' exercises, to front squats or rack pulls that just happen to be around the 4th exercise in my work out. My first 2-3 exercises are where I address my goals - strength.

Also, the low rep sets are almost always over several sets, except when I deload.

From my own training, learning and people in my gym(s) that i've helped out, I go by the theory that you either focus on strength, volume, or tme under tension (rep range). Which ever one you've been focusing, change for another...

So, 3 x 8 is 24 reps (total volume). So for hypertrophy, that's enough volume and optimal time under tension (8 reps). If you've been doing that for a while things have went stale, then focus on weight more than time under tension whilst keeping the same volume... i.e. do 8 x 3. That way, our volumes the same as before (24 reps), but time under tension (rep range) is less, HOWEVER, weight is higher... So basically the same over all effect, but your forcing your body to adapt in different ways.

You also have volume based approaches like EDT training (charles staley) where the focus is more total 'work' in the same amount of time.

There's so many ways to 'skin the cat'.. But again, the best method is whatever you haven't been doing...

KPj


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:18 am 
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Sounds amazing. I've gained a lot a lot a lot of weight im not "lean" with a little chub on the belly area. 4 years ago i weighed 160 i weigh 205-210 depending on when i weigh myself morning and night. Wierd. I'm 5'8 and love lifting heavy deads are my favorite and I'll have to change up work outs obviously because my sets have gone "stale"

I plan on implementing the five rep sets and see how that goes could that go just into compound workouts or is that possible for everything pull ups would have to be weighted. curls bench tri's etc? Also another question my legs are on the thinish side but I'm not weak well... not as weak as i could be. Could I do two leg workouts a week and would that up gaining potential for legs? I feel i know a lot but everytime i have a question it seems i know nothing. crazy. Off to lunch will be back shortly.


John Corless


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:27 pm 
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corless319_ wrote:
Sounds amazing. I've gained a lot a lot a lot of weight im not "lean" with a little chub on the belly area. 4 years ago i weighed 160 i weigh 205-210 depending on when i weigh myself morning and night. Wierd. I'm 5'8 and love lifting heavy deads are my favorite and I'll have to change up work outs obviously because my sets have gone "stale"

I plan on implementing the five rep sets and see how that goes could that go just into compound workouts or is that possible for everything pull ups would have to be weighted. curls bench tri's etc? Also another question my legs are on the thinish side but I'm not weak well... not as weak as i could be. Could I do two leg workouts a week and would that up gaining potential for legs? I feel i know a lot but everytime i have a question it seems i know nothing. crazy. Off to lunch will be back shortly.


John Corless


Well, seeing as how you're playing football I will make this suggestion for your legs: focus more on power, agility, and explosiveness. To do this I would suggest to add power cleans on your leg day and don't do the full front squat of the power clean just focus on the explosion from the floor. Also once done with lifting on the leg day I would add a plyometric routine.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:09 pm 
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ok to me power cleans look like dead lifts but im throwing the weight up to my neck dropping my body catching it and then squatting with it. Obviously I'd have to use lighter weight. That "explosiveness" would help assist in hitting am I right? For football. What rep range should you go with that as well?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:25 pm 
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corless319_ wrote:
ok to me power cleans look like dead lifts but im throwing the weight up to my neck dropping my body catching it and then squatting with it. Obviously I'd have to use lighter weight. That "explosiveness" would help assist in hitting am I right? For football. What rep range should you go with that as well?


I would start with 5x5 and since it sounds like you've never done them before I would suggest watching videos on how to do them and even ask around your gym if anyone is experienced with them. Though, since most people in gyms don't know that much about lifting asking around might provide you with bad advice. Power cleans are a technical lift and can be a little awkward if you've never done them before so getting as much info on how to perform them right is imperative.

Edit- Yes, explosiveness will help you in all aspects of football. This is just my personal opinion but being explosive, quick, and agile are more important than just having pure strength for sports.


Last edited by MrWonderful on Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:26 pm 
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For power cleans I use 3 reps but I'm an old fart and I run out of power fast. A classic routine by Dan John is 21s, that is 5 reps, add 5#, do 5 reps, add 5#, do 5 reps, add 5#, do 1 reps and continue until you have done 21 reps. Your top set will be 40# heavier than your starting weight. Once you make it to the top, add 5# to the starting weight next time.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:22 pm 
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That is crazy. Sounds like it would kill and I love hard workouts. Thats why deads are my favorite. Hmm and that would have to be thrown in on leg days right? even if you have to go light. I checked out the workout on this site and said wow that little chick is like doing that with 200 something am i right? Crazy and it looks a little scary in the front of the neck. Heres a question I'm going to change my reps on how i lift and all that im going to the 5x5 but that will start next week. I have been destroying my legs on legs day and loving it i did three sets of deads yesterday last set being 325 6 times then i did deep squats three sets last set being 250 and then lunges 2 sets 50 lb and 55 lb d bells if i go to the 5x5 or 3x5 sets how would that effect what in my opinion is endurance work with the lunges? should i cut them out. Also calves i feel im hitting them indirectly with the deads and the lunges but should i hit them with calf raise machine of some sort? I'm iffy about the legs cause im not entirely sure I should do compound and individual workouts but love hitting them hard i guess im backwards hahaha ok im out



John Corless


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