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 Post subject: Cardio?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:41 am 
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A few years back, I went on a challenge program that involved weight training, strict diet and cardio. I also took creatine and maybe some other supplements. The weight training was four days per week (Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri), the diet involved 6-7 meals per day (three whole food protein and carb balanced and three meal replacements) and cardio started at 3 times per week for 20 minutes evolving over 16 weeks to 6 times per week for an hour. With all of that being said, here is my underlying question. I went from 215 lbs and 25% bodyfat to 188 lbs and 14% body fat in 16 weeks... then after the program to 178 lbs and 9% bodyfat (without cardio). Years later, I tried to do the program again without the cardio... The fat loss just didn't occur. What I seemed to gather from that is that cardio is good for cutting fat, but isn't necessarily necessary for keeping it off. Does that make sense?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:49 am 
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It depends on the diet approach and post diet eating. You can't go back to pre-diet eating. The weight will come back. Not unless you can build enough muscle to burn those calories, but that will take years to do. It's pretty much imperative that you do cardio along with a cutting diet. The weightloss just won't occur otherwise.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:10 pm 
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duly noted, how diid you measure your body fat levels at the time and where are you now wrt weight and bf%? What time period has passed, and how old are you now?

When I do the math, your lean body mass didn't change by even 1 lb. I find that hard to believe. It's more likely that you lost weight but in fact lost muscle along with the fat. That would make it hard to keep the weight off in the long run and harder to lose later. You lost 27# in 16 weeks. It would be very hard to lose that much fat with no muscle loss.

I disagree with ironmaiden that cardio is required for fat loss. It is helpful but cardio is just a way of burning calories. With diet and the proper weight training program, the calorie balance can be managed just as easily as with cardio, you just can't eat as much. It doesn't take years to build muscle.

Stu


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:17 pm 
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I think it also has to do with what TYPE of cardio you're doing. The LSD (long slow distance) type of the Hamster Dance (as Ironman calls it) probably won't be of much help, other than to strengthen up the cardiovascualr system, whereas more intense forms, such as intervals or HIIT can be very beneficial to lose fat. Probably not needed as much to maintain it it though.
Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:31 pm 
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I did gain the weight back... and then I did the exact same program (sans the cardio) and didn't get the same results. Seems like cardio is absolutely necessary to cut fat... but when you "achieve your goal," you can continue with the weight training and diet without the cardio to maintain.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:37 pm 
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stuward... I had a trainer (a good one that trained competition bodybuilders), and he measured my fat with calipers. I'm not sure how you did the math. 215 lbs X 25% BF = 53.8 lbs of fat. 188 X 14% BF = 26.3 lbs of fat. A loss of 27.5 lbs of fat... so the entire loss was fat... What am I missing? That was almost 10 years ago. About 7 years ago (after I had substantially gaind a large portion back), I did the same thing (same trainer and relatively same diet but no cardio) and didn't achieve anywhere near the same results. I am nor doing it again, but I am having a tough time getting into the cardio, but I believe it's necessary based on my history.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:41 pm 
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Can you answer the questions I asked earlier?

Edit: OK I see you have answered.

This is an article that everyone should read. It's in the stickies under "Carb cycling"
http://drsquat.com/articles/zigzag.html

I want to draw particular attention to this paragraph:

Quote:
Will Cutting Calories Result In Fat Loss?
There are 3500 calories in one pound of fat. That means that by reducing your food by 500 calories per day, you should lose one pound of fat per week, right?
WRONG!
Actually, much of the weight you'll lose will come from muscle tissue, NOT fat! Why? Because your body tends to use ("excess") muscle tissue for needed energy before it reclaims fat deposits.
The answer is to TAKE YOUR TIME with fat loss, and either preserve or build muscle tissue by integrating scientific weight training, mild aerobics, dietary manipulation, supplementation and other technologies into your lifestyle. Follow the rules above!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:47 pm 
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Why don't you give us the details of your diet plan, weight training plan and cardio plan and we can take a look at it.

I still don't think you need a lot of cardio. Like Tim said, some interval training is helpful if you are fit enough to do it. Everyone can benefit from walking, hiking, cycling, enjoying nature. The benefits extend beyond calorie expenditure.

What condition are you currently in? What can you do? What can you not do?

Stu


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:14 pm 
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Stu... I don't currently have a strict diet yet.... The diet I was on before was Meal #1 - Oatmeal plus whey protein, Meal #2 - Myoplex, Meal #3 - half Chicken breast, brown rice, green veggie, Meal # 4 - Myoplex, Meal #5 - Chicken breast, brown rice, green veggie, Meal #6 - Egg whites and green veggiw with scoop of whey protein before bed. Four hours a week of weight training, chest, arms, shoulders, back, legs... Cardio was 20 minutes 3 times a week for two weeks, then 30 minutes four times a week for two weeks, then 45 minutes four times a week for two weeks, then 45 minutes five times a week for two weeks, then 45 minutes five times a week for two weeks, then 45 minutes five times a week for two weeks, then 1 hour minutes six times a week for two weeks... or something to that effect.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:14 pm 
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duly noted wrote:
stuward... I had a trainer (a good one that trained competition bodybuilders), and he measured my fat with calipers. I'm not sure how you did the math. 215 lbs X 25% BF = 53.8 lbs of fat. 188 X 14% BF = 26.3 lbs of fat. A loss of 27.5 lbs of fat... so the entire loss was fat... What am I missing? ...


When I did the math the fat numbers came out the same. Subtracting the fat from your weight gave exactly the same number for lean body mass for each of the 3 cases. I find that an extreme coincedence. if you say the measurements were accurate I'll take your word from it but I'm dubious.

What type of training did you do during the 3 years between workouts and in the 7 years since?

The effects of yo-yo dieting are well known. Did you know that yo-yo working out can have the same affect?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 094505.htm

Stu


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:16 pm 
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And oh.... Stu... I am currently 45 years old and seem to be able to lift and run better than I did 10 years ago when I started that program. It was hard to go 20 minutes of cardio to start, but now 30 minutes is relatively easy. Also, the "muscle memory" is still there. I can feel my muscles responding way faster than when I started before...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:37 pm 
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Quote:
Meal #1 - Oatmeal plus whey protein,

Carbs
Quote:
Meal #2 - Myoplex, Meal

I love myoplex, but its not a diet food more a bulk food diet
Quote:
Meal #3 - half Chicken breast, brown rice, green veggie,

A little brown rice 1/2 cup
Quote:
Meal # 4 - Myoplex, Meal

Same as #2
Quote:
#5 - Chicken breast, brown rice, green veggie,

Mix it up a little bit, other meats fish, etc
Quote:
Meal #6 - Egg whites and green veggiw with scoop of whey protein before bed.
Whole eggs

There seems to be a few too many calories here but I could be wrong. Check it out.

http://exrx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4616
Read this for diet info.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:49 pm 
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duly noted wrote:
And oh.... Stu... I am currently 45 years old and seem to be able to lift and run better than I did 10 years ago when I started that program. It was hard to go 20 minutes of cardio to start, but now 30 minutes is relatively easy. Also, the "muscle memory" is still there. I can feel my muscles responding way faster than when I started before...


You said earlier that you were having a tough time getting into the cardio. This sounds better. I think everyone should be able to run for 30 minutes, whether they should do it regularily is another issue. You should progress your running until you can run 1 mile in 8 min and 5k in 30 min. I think that's a healthy rate for most middle aged people. If you want to go faster or further, that's your choice. I think you should test yourself from time to time to ensure that your aerobic fitness is maintained but, if you weight train properly and regularily, you can maintain the aerobic fitness with just weight training.

You should weight train 3 times a week using compound exercises training the whole body. The focus should be on strength training. If you train your muscles, your heart and aerobic training will take care of itself.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:55 pm 
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Stu... Thanks.

ironmaiden... Gosh, I couldn't beging to tell you how many calories were in that diet, but if I could get intothe shape i was then, I would love it... which is what i fully expect to do now!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:37 pm 
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Well you are now 10 years older than before? Your metabolism is going to be slower than it was back then. So the amount of food you ate back then will be more than what you need now.


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