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 Post subject: Help reducing volume
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:53 pm 
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If anyone has seen my journal:
http://exrx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5097&start=0

You can tell my volume is pretty crazy.
I'm trying to lower my volume but I need some help.

Should I split all my additional exercises into categories of upper and lower body workouts so I'm not running marathons in the gym?

Example:
A=Sqaut/Bench/Deadlift ][][ B=Squat/Shoulder Press/Rows

A-plus upper
B-plus lower
A-plus upper

B-plus lower
A-plus upper
B-plus lower

This way hopefully lowering my total volume per workout?
My only problem is figuring out what muscle groups upper/lower work best together and on what days. Also, I'm not sure there are enough lower body muscle groups and exercises to have lower twice on the B,A,B weeks.

Something like:
A-biceps, triceps, forearms (abs)
B-calf raises, leg extensions, hamstring curls (abs)
A-chest, traps (abs)

B-calf raises, leg extensions, hamstring curls
A-biceps, triceps, back, shoulders
B-calf raises, leg extensions, weighted lunges

Does this look good at all?
I feel I've been doing great on the basic 3x5 madcow routine of A and B workouts for strength gain but I also want muscle development which is why I do additional stuff after I'm done with the main 3 exercises. Another question would be with my additional excercises, since I want muscle definition and maximum growth I'm not sure if I should be sticking with 5reps of high intensity heavy weights or higher reps say 10-12.

If this is totally stupid go ahead and say it, I don't offend easily hah. I just really need some guidance.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:46 am 
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Seeing as no-one else is willing to give it a go, here's what I think :lol:

Personally, I stick to a A/B push/pull routine.

Aim to train all parts twice a week, so....

Monday A
Tuesday B
Weds Day off
Thurs A
Fri B
Sat Day off
Sun Day off

A=Push
Front Raise
Behind Neck Press/Military Press
Bench Press
Incline Press
Chest Dips
Dumbell Flye (swap this if you want)
Triceps Extension
Full Squats
Standing Calf Raise
Side Bends (not a push, drop this out if you want or swap)

B=Pull
Shrugs
Upright Row
Bent Over Row
Front Pulldown/Pull ups
Preacher Curls
Curls
Wrist Curl*
Reverse Wrist Curl*
Crunch

Alternate/Swap Barbell work for Dumbells every month. *Take out Wrist Curls and swap for Hamstring or Deadlifts if you want, or side and rear delts.

I personally find this order of exercises works for me, keeps certain muscles fresh so you get the best out of them for the whole workout. Should take you around 45 mins to an hour.

Stick to Heavy weights with 6-10 reps until you reach a plateau, then drop the weight a bit and go 10-12 or even 15 for a month to shock the body a bit.

Regards,

Rik


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:30 am 
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That doesn't really reduce his volume. Without going back to look at his journal, I think this would actually increase it.

Pick 3 or 4 exercises per workout, whether whole-body or body-part split. Think of movements rather than muscles.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:53 am 
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From the journal:

"Workout A
Squats = 3 x 5
Bench = 3 x 5
Weighted Lunges = 3 x 5
Abs = 3 sets

Workout B
Squats = 3 x 5
Shoulder Press = 3 x 5
Rows = 3 x 5
Pullups = 3 sets
Abs = 3 sets

But then I want to add additional workouts because I have loads of energy. I'm lifting to failure each set, pushing as much weight as possible, the most I have ever pushed in my life to be hoenst.
I don't want to lose anything I already have... i.e. chest, arms, abs, calves, back.
Would like to add biceps, triceps, abs, calves, back, traps, in both A and B just not sure how and in what order."

And then:

"but I also want muscle development which is why I do additional stuff after I'm done with the main 3 exercises. Another question would be with my additional excercises, since I want muscle definition and maximum growth I'm not sure if I should be sticking with 5reps of high intensity heavy weights or higher reps say 10-12."

I would like a new car, but dont want to pay for it...

The main problem is see is he doesn't have a set plan, and would like to target all muscles. He has to add volume to achive this, but what I suggested is less volume than he has done in the past.

Of course, everyone is different..It's just a suggestion though


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:09 pm 
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I think I'm going to try this routine for about 4-6weeks and re-evaluate.

Mon: Lower
Squat: 3-4X6-8/3' (3-4 sets of 6-8 with a 3' rest)
SLDL or leg curl: 3-4X6-8/3'
Leg press: 2-3X10-12/2'
Another leg curl: 2-3X10-12/2'
Calf raise: 3-4X6-8/3'
Seated calf: 2-3X10-12/2'

Tue: Upper
Flat bench: 3-4X6-8/3'
Row: 3-4X6-8/3'
Incline bench or shoulder press: 2-3X10-12/2'
Pulldown/chin: 2-3X10-12/2'
Triceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5'
Biceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5'

Nomenclature explanation:
3-4X6-8/3' means 3-4 sets of 6-8 reps with 3 minute rest between sets.

*The only thing I don't like is the long rest between sets but since it's a new routine I'm gonna stick with it to a "T" and then change rest time if I don't like the feel of it.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:35 pm 
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Sorry, I dont get it? I would re-evaluate now and not waste 6 weeks.

What will you be doing on the other day's?

Why are you doing 2 lots of Calf and Leg Curls on Monday? You could be doing something else.

Tuesday, you need to Row and shoulder Press before Bench Press. This will warm your Front delts nicely ready for the Press this way. I'm presuming you mean Upright row? If not, where's your delt work? Rear delts? Traps?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:09 pm 
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yeah sorry upright rows.
6weeks of doing this split 3 times a week to see what kind of gains I make.


No idea on why so many repetative leg excercises on the first day, it's basically straight from Lyle McDonald's Bulking routine.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:16 pm 
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lightningsix wrote:
I think I'm going to try this routine for about 4-6weeks and re-evaluate.

Mon: Lower
Squat: 3-4X6-8/3' (3-4 sets of 6-8 with a 3' rest)
SLDL or leg curl: 3-4X6-8/3'
Leg press: 2-3X10-12/2'
Another leg curl: 2-3X10-12/2'
Calf raise: 3-4X6-8/3'
Seated calf: 2-3X10-12/2'

Tue: Upper
Flat bench: 3-4X6-8/3'
Row: 3-4X6-8/3'
Incline bench or shoulder press: 2-3X10-12/2'
Pulldown/chin: 2-3X10-12/2'
Triceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5'
Biceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5'

Nomenclature explanation:
3-4X6-8/3' means 3-4 sets of 6-8 reps with 3 minute rest between sets.

*The only thing I don't like is the long rest between sets but since it's a new routine I'm gonna stick with it to a "T" and then change rest time if I don't like the feel of it.


Well, now it looks like you are doubling or tripling your volume. I thought your goal was to reduce the volume.

Why do leg presses in addition to squats? Why do both calf raise (I assume standing) and seated calf raise? Why do both leg curls and SLDL?

What do you mean by "triceps" and "biceps"? There are lots of exercises that target those. Again you're duplicating effort for someone who wants to reduce volume. The presses work the triceps, the pulls (chins and rows) work the biceps.

Are your goals clear to you? Are you strength training or body building? This looks (to me, who isn't into BB) like a BB routine with extra emphasis on the gunz, but the thread is about reducing volume. I'm confused.

I'm a bit confused by your journal. I guess you just recently posted the journal, but the information goes back to July. It looks like you started with a 3 x 5 routine with basic compound exercises, but before you had really had a chance to show any progress you changed to the new routine, consisting of many, many isolation exercises. Your old routine looks pretty sound to me, and is not extremely high volume. Why did you make the change? Why now do you want to reduce volume now?

My summary: You had a good program, but before you gave it a decent chance you changed to a terrible program, and now you want to correct some of the bad features of the program without going back to a good, fundamental routine.

My advice: Go back to your original routine, progress the loading gradually until you truly plateau, then work out needed changes. I'm guessing that this probably won't be for several months.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:04 pm 
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Okay, cool, thanks for clarifying.

I had spotted the leg presses and squats too, but forgot to mention it in my reply. Jungledocs quite correct.

The thing about other peoples routines is just that, it's other peoples routines. It may not work for you.

Lyle McDonald's advice for body building may be great if you have the correct genetics or taking steroids (i'm assuming you're not). But Bodybuilding seems like the goal here. If you want to bodybuild, then you will need volume, there's no getting away from it.

The good news is you seem to be committed and I salute you for that.

Take Jungledocs advice and stick to the basic compound movements and add your own tweaks. Come up with your own design, based on what you know works for you, only you.

My goal is bodybuilding, I have my routine and it is volume based around push/pull, and a bit of instinct. You've been training for long enough to have the instinct, just follow it and stick to it until things stop. Then you need to suprise the body for a bit and then back to the beginning with a few tweaks. For sure you need a plan.

Good luck, hope to hear whats happening in a few weeks.

Regards,

Rik


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:15 pm 
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I agree with everyone else. You are ALL over the place with your workouts. If you haven't been lifting very consistently for at least a year, I would stop worrying about a plateau and worry about getting stronger.

I would either do something like a fullbody routine as you were apparently doing A B A B A B
A
Squats
Bench Press
Rows
B
Deadlift
Overhead Press
Pullups

OR

I would do upper lower with some days off (ie NOT 6 days per week).
A B off A B off off repeat next week
A - Upper
Bench Press
Rows
Shoulder Press
Pullups

B - Lower
Squats
Deadlift or SLDL
Leg Curls
Calf Raises

If you have so much energy, do more sets or do something else like an explosive sport. If you really feel juiced you can add 1 bicep exercise and 1 tricep exercise on A and add some unilateral leg work on B.

If you are still full of energy, then can I get your secret?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:11 pm 
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Quote:
If you are still full of energy, then can I get your secret?

The secret would have to be is that he isn't pushing himself at all and has an awful routine.

Drop the 2 calf raises and alternate between the two from workout to workout not unless you are getting ready for a comp. 3 months away (which I assume your not). Also drop leg extension and leg curls, if you want to hit the quads and hams better alternate in front squats and rdl into your routines.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:17 am 
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All sounds good fellas, thank you very much.

I'm going to stick to my main pulls and pushes and add a set or two of bicep and triceps and I'm done. In and out.


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