ExRx.net

Exercise Prescription on the Net
It is currently Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:07 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 105 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:49 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:17 pm
Posts: 31
Hi everyone,

Last time I posted it was about back pain. That seems to be all gone after having seen a doctor and working on form with my exercises.

Currently I am performing a full body routine three times a week.

My workouts consist of:

Chest Press: 3x10
Assisted Chins: 3x10
Deadlifts: 3x10
Squats: 3x10

Occasionally I will work out with a friend and during that week the workouts change to a back/bis, chest/tris, legs split.

I much prefer the full body workout, and ocasionally I'll change the exercises to work through vert and horizontal push/pulls.

Here comes my question.

I've been thinking of using Eric Cressey's Neanderthal no more workouts. In Part IV he says to work the global muscles four days a week and the local muscles possibly every day.

When should I do the different NNM days? In between the sessions three days a week when I do my whole body routine? He likes to do front squats and deadlifts, would it be overkill?

Any advice would be appreciated, thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:56 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4424
i personally think if your number one goal just now is to correct your posture, then just do the routine cressey provides. Once you've got your posture sorted then go back to doing your own workout.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:39 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:17 pm
Posts: 31
Maybe I will just focus on the NNM workouts for a while.

I guess my source of confusion is this.

What would you consider global muscles and local muscles?

By Eric Cressey's definitions:

What are "global" and "local" muscles? Local muscles (also known as the deep muscular system) are extremely important when we're discussing posture improvements. The primary roles of the deep muscular system are motor control, segmental stabilization, and fine-tuning of movements.

On the flip side, you have the global (or superficial) muscle system. The primary role of the superficial muscle system is to produce movement, power, and torque. As a general rule, when you have significant postural issues, your global or superficial system is overactive and the deeper system is inhibited or weak.


Then I would consider global muscles to be muscles like the lats/pecs/glutes. Local muscles to be possibly the rotator cuff muscles?

Maybe I'm just not understanding it.

Would hitting the global muscles with some of his exercises in the program be enough to maintain what strength I have?

Or is it just my thinking that is off? I tried googling global and local muscles and didn't find anything that made it seem simpler than Eric's explanation.

Here's a link to Part IV of his program in case anyone doesn't know where to find it: http://www.t-nation.com/article/perform ... art_iv&cr=

Confused....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:14 pm 
Offline
moderator
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Posts: 7503
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea
Cressy has every day of the week covered in his plan. When would you do anything else? Looking it over, this is a pretty comprehensive routine, and I think it's intended to be your only routine for whatever period of time you use it. It looks to me like it's mostly the "global" muscles on M, T, Th, Sa, and the "local" muscles on W, F, Su.

By the way, I think those terms are mostly Cressey's and Robertson's, and are not used very commonly by others. At least I don't recall seeing them used much elsewhere. When I googled them, it looked like mostly sites about either physical therapy or chiropractic use them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:11 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3474
In basic terms, Global muscles are the ones you can see. So yes, pecs, delts, lats, etc. Local muscles are the ones that sit deeper in the body, and you can't really see them. I'm sure those terms are used in the Manual of Structural Kinesiology, but not 100% sure.

I would go as far as to say that the local muscles are the one's that keep you healthy. An exampleof the relationship between the two types is the Rotator Cuff and the Deltoids. When the Rotator Cuff becomes bad at stabilising the shoulder, the deltoids pitch in and try and do it for them. This is what they're trying to explain in the article when it tells you that when global muscles are overactive, local muscles are weak/inhibited.

The local muscles respond best to frequency. Mostly, they're not big powerful muscles. They are more about endurance. But if you have a weak muscle, even if it's global, if may need to be treated the same in order to get it working properly i.e. the glutes being targetted in between days by Supine Bridges (although the glutes are a muscle GROUP which consist of global and local muscles).

For example, if you have underactive glutes, then strengthening them via DL variations would be half the battle, but not enough. YOu'll also need to 'activate' them regulary, so that they 'switch on' often enough that they learn to stay switched on. Function isn't just about strength, it's about the correct muscles working at the correct times. A typical neanderthal posture has glutes (among other muscles) that just don't want to switch on, and a big reason is because where we have a weak muscle, we also haev an overactive muscle. So, as well as having muscles that don't want to switch on, you have other muscles that are greedy and try do the weak muscles job. High frequency, low load movements for the weak muscles AND movements to bring their strength up to par AND stretches and/or soft tissue work to inhibit the overactive greedy muscles are all neccessary. You are literally re programming how your brain controls your body as well as bringing your strength up to scratch.

It takes a big focus, but once you get things ironed out, you can step off the gas a little. Doing it the way the article suggests means you'll see a big difference in a short amount of time, too. I WANT to say that doing it less will just see slower gains but i'm becoming more and more convinced that it just won't work if you do it less.

In terms of maintaining strength - yes, easily enough. Infact, for most that I see training in the gym, it will make them stronger. You also need to bear in mind that you will be targetting weaknesses. So, say, for example, you come back and your bench press has dropped 10lbs. Assuming you done everything correctly, it will only be a matter of weeks before it shoots up, and more than likely, shoots up beyond what is was before, because it's just a case of putting the new found strength and function to use.

KPj


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:29 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3474
Also, the GPP days, on Wed, Fri, and Sunday, last about 10 minutes. Probably 20 when your not familiar with the movements, but it's not all that much of a sacrifice....

KPj


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:33 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:17 pm
Posts: 31
Great! Thank you all for the responses. I'll take some time and really focus on the NNM workouts.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:43 pm 
Offline
Novice
Novice

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:43 pm
Posts: 60
Has anyone actually tried this program? How long do you need to do it for before you get results?

I have pretty bad posture and I am thinking about doing this to fix my neanderthal look that Im currently sporting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:27 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3474
I've done a very similar, but slightly more in depth program, based on the same principles. Basically, that program is designed for the masses. mine was the same stuff, designed for me, although, it WAS quite similar. I still incorporate a lot of those principles into my routine - the GPP, foam rolling, stretching etc.

That also includes the GPP days, and a hell of a lot of foam rolling, which I done every day. And a lot of the time, I stretched atleast a few times a day. My posture was really bad. It used to be a real strain just to get my shoulders back and down - it felt horrible.

You can actually build on your GPP, eventually doing sprints, jumps, agility stuff, a bit of moderate/light sled dragging etc to aid recovery. I generally only do that kind of stuff on one of the GPP days. And I don't always manage the GPP days.

I felt a difference in about a week. I felt amazing after a month. The thing with posture is, it's essential to correct it during the times when you're not in the gym - it's crucial. So, your always in good posture, although you constantly need to remind yourself. Eventually, it just doesn't feel right when you slip back into your old hunched posture. And after that, it only feels right when your in good posture.

So you see results very quickly if your commited. As far as actually correcting it - well, your trying to undo years/a life time of damage. Its not going to happen over night, ya know, but you SHOULD feel it steadily improving, and becoming more natural. I reckon it was about 9 months before I could truly say that my posture was 'fixed'. But it's hard to tell, if you remind yourself enough, it becomes automatic - auto pilot. That's what you want, first and foremost.

On top of that, the program in the article got amazing feed back...

In short, if you do the program, and take care of 'the other 23 hours that your not in the gym', then you'll feel it working pretty quickly.

KPj


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:45 pm 
Offline
Novice
Novice

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:43 pm
Posts: 60
KPj wrote:
So you see results very quickly if your commited. As far as actually correcting it - well, your trying to undo years/a life time of damage. Its not going to happen over night, ya know, but you SHOULD feel it steadily improving, and becoming more natural. I reckon it was about 9 months before I could truly say that my posture was 'fixed'. But it's hard to tell, if you remind yourself enough, it becomes automatic - auto pilot. That's what you want, first and foremost.
KPj


Im thinking about starting this program right around the time I start back into softball. I planned to back off a bit during softball season anyways.
I really just did not want to give up my current program for 2-3 months right now, so I was really curious how long people felt they needed to do the routine.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:46 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3474
One thing I would recommend is to go back to the first of that article series and read through everything, and do everything it says (take photos, make a table with noted headings etc). It'll take a couple of hours, and be quite mind numbing, but you'll learn a lot about yourself.

You know, you can just go to a good physiotherapist (you may call them physical therapists) and get assessed. Think of it as a service. You just need one session, and if they're worth their salt, they'll tell you what's tight, what's weak, how to correct that, and what was likely to have cause it...

KPj


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:16 pm 
Offline
Novice
Novice

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:43 pm
Posts: 60
This is my first week doing the program. and I have a few questions.

Cressey never really talks about what to do outside of the gym to maintain good posture. Any tips here? I am currently just trying to keep my head up and my shoulders back as much as possible. But I am wondering what I should be doing about my lower half to help with the lordosis. Should i be trying to rotate my pelvis when I am standing and walking?

KPj wrote:
So you see results very quickly if your commited. As far as actually correcting it - well, your trying to undo years/a life time of damage. Its not going to happen over night, ya know, but you SHOULD feel it steadily improving, and becoming more natural. I reckon it was about 9 months before I could truly say that my posture was 'fixed'.


If you don't mind answering KPj, even though you did a similar program to the NNM program, how long did you actually do your program before switching? I am just curious about how long this was your main focus in the gym.

The lordosis in my back is more pronouced than any of the case studies in the program, so I realize this is going to take some time. Lucky for me I have found weightlifting very enjoyable so I doubt I will have problems sticking to the routine for as long as it takes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:42 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3474
airhog wrote:
This is my first week doing the program. and I have a few questions.

Cressey never really talks about what to do outside of the gym to maintain good posture. Any tips here?


Yes, lot's. He actually talks about this a lot, but maybe it's not in those articles - can't remember now. Below is 2 articles from Tony Gentilcore and Jimmy Smith. Tony works with Cressey. They are both a great read, but the second one has lot's of tips on posture outside of the gym so it's worth a read.

Deconstructing Computer Guy 1
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... er_guy&cr=

Deconstructing Computer Guy 2
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... _hours&cr=

Here's a quick run down, though.

a good rule of thumb with the shoulders is to think about not letting your chin stick out past your chest. In order to achieve this, your shoulders need to be down, back, with chest up, neck neutral, with chin tucked slightly (you may find yourself moving your neck back, but to compensate, you tilt your head upwards, this is what you're trying to avoid by 'tucking the chin slightly'. It's much easier to just try and keep your chin behind your chest, though, as it pulls it all together.

Also - fidget. You need to, in a nutshell, move around some more. Just reach for the sky, stand up, stretch, sit back down, go get a glass of water - anything, just move in some way and try and do so every 20-30 mins. This makes a difference.

As for walking - try and squeeze the glutes as the heel strikes the ground. Again, it will eventually become habbit.

Most importantly, just try and remind yourself to check your posture regularly. You don't need to remember all of these details - it sounds like you know what you need to know in this regard. It's literally as simple as reminding yourself.

I'll answer the next part separately, because it kind of opens a can of worms and the post could potentially be 2 pages long.

KPj


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:48 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3474
airhog wrote:
If you don't mind answering KPj, even though you did a similar program to the NNM program, how long did you actually do your program before switching? I am just curious about how long this was your main focus in the gym.

The lordosis in my back is more pronouced than any of the case studies in the program, so I realize this is going to take some time. Lucky for me I have found weightlifting very enjoyable so I doubt I will have problems sticking to the routine for as long as it takes.


I don't mind answering at all.

This is kind of complicated to answer because I still do a lot of the stuff in that program. The real 'root cause' of all my problems were all the sitting down I was doing.

So let's just fast forward to my posture being 'fixed'. Naturally, you would think I could now stop doing most of the stuff in that program. However, i'm still sitting down all day. I still do quite a lot of driving. The 'cause' is still there. So, atleast part of the solution needs to remain in order to balance that out.

As for my program. Well, it's sort of evolved. I have my foam rolling, dynamic warm up, and lifting sessions. Foam rolling normally is before the warm up. The warm up is dynamic, which includes a lot of the stuff you can see in NNM. My actual lifting sessions still focus mostly on the posterior chain (I just believe this should be the case). I try and stretch the hip flexors every day, at least. I also still include the movement/gpp days between lifting days.

I guess the biggest difference is I do more lifting, and less of the activation stuff. It's hard to answer because I do my own programs, as opposed to one's you'll find on the net and they have evolved from Cresseys programs. When I want to focus on something, I work it into my current template, so that i'm always strengthening what's weak, 'activating' what I don't use througout the day, stretching what's tight, and avoiding things that bring back pain, regardless of what I focus on.

I think what i'm trying to say is, once you feel this stuff working, you won't want to stop doing it. Looking back at my programs, it was after 3 months that I decided I was only interested in strength, so that could be considered to be when I 'switched'.

If sheds any more light, I believe that any program, no matter what the focus, will work on and around your weaknesses and limitations. Posture is simply a good indication of your weaknesses and limitationsso it should always be a consideration, atleast, if you want to try and perform to your potential (and stay healthy). If you do this program and get results, it will change the way you view training.

I think it will make more sense if I post one of my lifting days and explain how it's covers everything. I'll do that shortly. I'll just post what I done yesterday.

KPj


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:52 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3474
OK, i've pasted this from Excel so it's sort of all over the place.

Foam Rolling:
-IT Band/TFL
-Hip Flexors
-Quads
-Adductors
-Piriformis (baseball)
-Calves (baseball)
-Lats
-Pecs
-Infraspinatus (baseball)
-Thoracic Extension

Dynamic Warm Up:
-New Strange Yoga Stretch that physio gave me
-Kneeling RF/TFL Stretch
-Unsupported anterior-posterior leg swings
-Birddog
-Upper Trap/Levator Scapulae stretch
-Rocking Calf Mobilizations
-Cradle Walk
-Alternating Lateral Lunge Walks
-1-leg SLDL Walk
-Ankle Mobilisations (extra set on right side)
-Reverse Lunge w/Twist
-Walking Spidermans
-Quadruped Extension-Rotation
-Split-Stance Broomstick Pec Mobilizations

BTW - the above covers just about everthing NNM covers with the movement/activation stuff.

Resistance Training:
-Sumo Deadlifts - 4x3, 2x6
-ankle mobilisations x 15 (extra set on right side)
-DB Bulgarian Split Squats - 3x8/side
-Reach, Roll, and Lift - 8/side (Lower trap activation)
-DB Forward Lunges - 4x8/side
-Bar Rollouts - 3x12
-Half Kneeling Cable Chop - 3x10/side
-Kneeling Hip Flexor Stretch s/s with Single-leg Supine Bridges-15 secs + 10/side

So.... I don't always foam roll pre warm up - not always got time. Sometimes I do it 'on the side' - at night, before bed, or whatever. Only takes me 10 minutes anyway. The warm up looks like a lot, but it took me 15 minutes. Going from one movement straight onto the other. Your talking about 1 minute tops for each movement if you're efficient. Now, most of the 'healthy stuff' is addressed via foam rolling and warming up. Now it's onto the lifting part.

Really, there's 3 main exercises. DL's, Bulgarian Split Squats, and Forward Lunges. These make up the bulk of the workout. Actually, the DL's make up about 30 minutes of it. Rollouts and Wood chops is 'core stuff'. And the superset at the end is kind of like a cool down, but again, it helps balance all the sitting down I do (and stop previous limitations/pain coming back). Normally I would have front squats or something after DL's but the volume is low because i'm coming back from illness.

Anyway, you should be able to see that it's 3 main exercises, then, 'decorated' with other stuff I need. You have the core stuff, the superset at the end, and also the 'fillers' - the mobilisations between exercises which also address weaknesses or previous weaknesses. Put it all together and you have what looks like a very complicated program, but it's actually quite straight forward.

I'm hoping you can see the similarities to NNM. This is what i mean by it 'evolving'. For example, when you're glutes are very weak, then putting supine bridges and a hip stretch first in your work out before DL's, DESPITE doing a dynamic warm up, is necessary. But when you've got them firing properly, you no longer need that. You can use the time for something better.

Oh, also, all the tempo stuff is just to teach you propper form and movement. I dropped all tempo's and stuff after about 2 months.

KPj

p.s you shouldn't get me started on posture, as I have trouble shutting up about it.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 105 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next


All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group