ExRx.net

Exercise Prescription on the Net
It is currently Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:24 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: understanding DOMS
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:15 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4424
i know that it's a commonly held myth that DOMS is an indicator of how good your workout, and that's fair enough. What i don't understand is why i always get it in some parts of my body and never others. For example i always get really bad DOMS in my hamstrings that can take up to a fortnight to go away, and in my chest i always get it for about a week. Conversely i never get it anywhere in my back, ever. And never anywhere in my legs except my hamstrings.

Is it an indicator of some underlying weakness? That could be true for my hamstrings, but i'd be surprised if there's any kind of weakness in my chest.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:26 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3482
All we really know for sure about DOMS is that it's not a reflection of the 'success' or intensity of a training session, and it's nothing to do with lactic acid. What we do seem to know is that 'new things' cause DOMS, such as a new exercise or even rep range. Also, eccentric contractions seem to cause more DOMS, too i.e. the 'lowering' part of a movement.

That's about as far as my knowledge goes on DOMS, maybe others will have more to say about it.

On the hamstring pain - a few Ham exercises are quite eccentric dominant (if that's a phrase!). RDL's, anyone? Not to mention GHR's. I certainly know from experience aswell that these exercises cause a lot of DOMS when you've not done them before, or in a while. This could explain the hamstring thing. Maybe.

Most folks in the gym don't have a eccentric phase when doing rows or pull/chin ups. They just 'drop', instead of 'lower'. Could explain the back thing. Maybe.. If you want DOMS in your back just do snatch grip rack pulls :wink: That brings me to another point. A lot of people train there back and hardly every actually retract and depress the shoulder blades. Examples - not getting full or propper ROM on pull ups, rows, and even deadlifts. It's amazing how many people just stand up straight in a deadlift without locking out the shoulders. Would amaze me if the middle and lower traps get any work at all.

No idea about the chest thing. If you don't write down your program and log your sets and reps, then you could be working a different rep range quite regularly. Maybe..

That's my theories. In my experience, cool downs don't seem to do much to curb DOMS. However, 'movement/gpp' days in between lifting days seem to ease DOMS. These days would include something like a dynamic warm up, some light, low intensity high rep exercises to get blood flowing, and something really hardcore like walking on a treadmill on lncline for 15-20 minutes, then something extremely bada$$ like stretching. Really, you just move around, get the blood flowing. These things may or may not have research to back them up, it's just what i've found myself.

KPj


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:25 pm 
Offline
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Posts: 2097
Location: New York City
@robertscott:

I read somewhere once that bodyparts that are tight are predisposed to DOMS. Whether or not this is true I can't say with any certainty, but it might be something for you to think about. The hamstrings are notoriously tight in many people.And excessive bench pressing can lead to stiffness in the shoulder girdle, which is why many Olympic lifters minimize their use of the bench press. Overhead lifting requires a flexible shoulder girdle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:05 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Posts: 4505
Location: Pennsylvania
"And excessive bench pressing can lead to stiffness in the shoulder girdle, which is why many Olympic lifters minimize their use of the bench press. Overhead lifting requires a flexible shoulder girdle." - Stephen Johnson

I've heard this also, however this isn't the only reason Olympic lifters don't bench much. I think the main reason is that benching contributes comparatively little to their two competition lifts compared to other assistance exercises.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:52 pm 
Offline
In Memoriam: TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 am
Posts: 3129
Location: Va Beach, Va
Matt Z wrote:
I've heard this also, however this isn't the only reason Olympic lifters don't bench much. I think the main reason is that benching contributes comparatively little to their two competition lifts compared to other assistance exercises.

This is true. It wasn't always the case, however. The Press got eliminated from the Olympic lifts back in the late 60's. Prior to that, BP's and in particular,Inclne BP's with a clean grip were used alot as an assistance exercise for the press, as there is a lot of carryover, epecially with a high incline BP. After the elimination, pushing power from the shoulder girdle isn't really focused on much.The jerk is primarily a leg/hip drive issue, and the shoulder girdle is used primarily for stabilization of the weight overhead. It's kind of a shame, because there isn't much focus on upper body anymore, and a lot of interest in it has faded, primarily because of that.
Tim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:25 pm 
Offline
Exalted Seer
Exalted Seer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm
Posts: 2097
Location: New York City
@TimD, MattZ:

Several strength athletes who compete in both Olympic lifting and powerlifting - particularly Mark Henry - are judicious with their bench training because of their concerns about tight shoulders. But what you both said about olympic lifters not benching makes sense - horizontal pressing doesn't enter into the Olympic equation.

TimD - Why was the Military Press dropped from the Olympic lifts anyway? When I was a kid, the Miltary Press was more popular than the Bench as a measure of strength. Someone once told me that it was dropped because of widespread cheating, but that doesn't make any sense.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:19 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4424
Stephen - what you were saying about tight bodyparts being predisposed to DOMS would actually make sense, as my hamstrings and chest are both extremely tight, particularly my hamstrings.

and yeah i'd like to know why the press was dropped from olympic lifting too


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:31 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3482
As far as I know it was for 'safety' because lifters were going into hyperextension and basically turning it into a horizontal press. I don't really know how I know that, though.

Also, if you have anterior pelvic tilt then I doubt you have tight hamstrings.

KPj


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:43 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 8:43 am
Posts: 5252
Location: New Jersey
I've seen a few people - including Mark Rippetoe - claim the Press was ostensibly dropped for difficulty of judging...but probably really dropped because it cuts the length of a meet by 1/3.

That sounds plausible...you get rid of a lift people had been turning into a standing bench press, and avoid any controversial judging/rules changes by getting rid of it, shortening each meet in the process. From an organizing standpoint it's win-win.

***

On the original topic, DOMS is really hard to pin down. I know I get sore from trying "new" exercises, or just new variations of old ones. Because my routine varies so much, I spend a lot of time sore. I'm always doing something I haven't done in a while, if only because so much rotates in and out of my workout.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:55 am 
Offline
In Memoriam: TimD
In Memoriam: TimD
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 am
Posts: 3129
Location: Va Beach, Va
While what ecame the style of the day may have safety issues, the decision to drop the press was poitical for several reasons, one being the inability to judge properly. Here is an excerpt from JV's site.

"The rules at that time did not allow for any back bend when performing a press.

However, the Soviet lifters were encouraged by their officials and coaches to ignore this rule, and soon a new form of Press was introduced that became to be known as the "Russian style" Olympic press. This double lay back or back bending style soon crept into international competitions, and with uninformed crowds, thinking such lifts were good, many referees got intimidated into passing bad lifts.

Now rather than standing up to the USSR and saying, "NO, THIS FORM OF PRESS WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED", the IWF capitulated and in 1956 changed the wording of the press rules! The new rule had the words "without exaggerated back bend". Thus any interpretation by a referee was an "individual judgment call". What may have been an "exaggerated back bend" to one referee could be perfectly acceptable to another.

Kanygin of the USSR at the 1971 Worlds Championships
demonstrates why many lobbied to discontinue the Press.
This attempt failed because he dropped the bar behind him.

Well, it didn't take but a decade, and the back bends on presses, many times were so excessive, sometimes lifters hyper extended their backs to parallel with the floor. By 1964, the IWF knew that things were out of hand. Thus a motion, to eliminate the Press, was made at the IWF congress at the Tokyo Olympics. It failed, but a similar motion was made at Mexico City in 1968. It also failed. However finally, at the 1972 Olympics in Munich, a motion to eliminate the press finally passed, and starting on January 1st, 1973 only the Snatch and Clean and Jerk officially remained. "

Tim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:46 pm 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 625
Location: Kentucky, USA
I just found this PDF which I'm pretty sure would be a much longer version of Tim's explanation....
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLib ... H2803d.pdf

And here is a Picture taken from page 20 of the above mentioned PDF...
Image

Now back on Topic for me...
I seem to get DOMS only when doing a NEW exercise. By New, I mean anything that I haven't been doing frequently or recently. I can't say that any body part is more or less likely to get DOMS though.

Cliff


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:43 am 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1113
Quote:
wilburburns wrote:
I just found this PDF which I'm pretty sure would be a much longer version of Tim's explanation....
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLib ... H2803d.pdf

And here is a Picture taken from page 20 of the above mentioned PDF...
Image


Great picture. The Olympic Press became called "The Standing Bench Press". This picture shows why.

Quote:
Now back on Topic for me...
I seem to get DOMS only when doing a NEW exercise. By New, I mean anything that I haven't been doing frequently or recently. I can't say that any body part is more or less likely to get DOMS though.

Cliff


As you and KPj noted, DOMS usually occurs with a new exercise. What happens is someone let's their ego overload their ass, starting out the new exercise with more weight than they should.

Overloading the muslce will cause sorness, be it with a concentric or eccentric movement. I've done it.

The soreness associated with eccentric movements is, in my veiw, primarily caused by doing just that, starting out with an eccentric load that is too heavy.

One of the reasons that occurs is that there is some research indicating that you can lower up to 50% more than you can push up. That would someone who could push up 300 lbs in the bench press might be able to lower 450 lbs (300 X 1.5 =450).

So, many of those who initially using supramaximal loads (loads greater than you can push up), almost always start out with loads that are too heavy...loads greater than 100% of you max bench press or other exercises. That insures you are going to have DOMS, soreness.

So, the moral to the story is when performing a new exerise, ease into it.

Warren Frost research article, "Eccentric movement:..." suggest using submax loads and progressing to loads of 120% of your bench press max or any other exercise you use. http://www.strengthandconditioning.org/ ... aining.pdf

Thus, if you max bench press is 300 lbs, start off with 260 lbs or a little higher when performing an eccentric only movement.

Doing so, allow you body to become acclimated to the exercise. That insures little if any soreness. It hard to go back into the gym if you're too sore to lift.

Kenny Croxdale


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 


All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group