ExRx.net

Exercise Prescription on the Net
It is currently Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:51 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:52 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 22
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Qua ... Squat.html

Should I come to a complete stop like this link for the full squat while doing squats or is it only for full squats but I always do full squats which I why I was asking

Thanks in advance


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:01 pm 
Offline
moderator
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Posts: 7578
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea
You don't really have to pause. Just don't bounce. As soon as I feel I'm to my depth I start driving up.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:06 pm 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:42 pm
Posts: 738
i usually just pull the e brake when i'm as low as i can go(which has been getting lower and lower as of lately) and then just hit the gas and rip.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:22 am 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1113
js2003 wrote:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBFullSquat.html

Should I come to a complete stop like this link for the full squat while doing squats or is it only for full squats but I always do full squats which I why I was asking

Thanks in advance


JS,

As Jungledoc stated, you don't have to stop. You can get a little rebound out of the hole, just don't bounce out of the hole (as Jungledoc said).

Training you squat with a slight "touch and go" off the bottom and by stopping/pausing the weight at the bottom of the movement are two different training methods that develop two different types of strength.

A little rebound evokes and trains the stretch reflex. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretch_reflex

When the stretch reflex is elicited, you produce more power coming out of the hole. Power = Strength X Speed. That power enables you to push more weight up.

However, you can stop/pause in the bottom of the movement if you want. Doingso, provides a different training effect.

Think of squatting with a slight "touch and go" out of the hole and stopping/pausing the weght in the bottom of your squat as ice cream.

"Touch and go" is vanilla and stopping/pausing is chocolate. They are both ice cream but they are a little different.

Stopping/pausing the movement kills the stretch reflex. Research shows that when the weight is stopped/paused in a movement for approximately 4 seconds, it kills the stretch reflex.

Thus, when you stop/pause the weight in a squat or another exercise/movement in a somewhat heavy movement, you are developing "Limit Strength" in the bottom part of your squat.

You have no momentum coming out of the hole when you stop/pause in an exercise/movement.

Kenny Croxdale


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:43 pm 
Offline
moderator
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Posts: 7578
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea
Ice cream. I like that. If you stay in the hole too long, you melt and plop on the floor.

So, Kenny--if you're trying to increase your max squat, is it a useful strategy to train part of the time will a full stop in the hole?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:37 pm 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 4:31 pm
Posts: 613
That's interesting Kenny. I know box squats pretty much stop the stretch reflex and powerlifters use this exercise a lot. Are you more likely to develope mass or strength by not using the stretch reflex assuming your reps are 8-12?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:29 am 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1113
Jungledoc wrote:
Ice cream. I like that. If you stay in the hole too long, you melt and plop on the floor.

Jungledoc, yes you do...:)

So, Kenny--if you're trying to increase your max squat, is it a useful strategy to train part of the time will a full stop in the hole?


That depends. If you lack strength coming out of the hole, training with a pause will increase you strength out of the hole.

Kenny Croxdale


Last edited by Kenny Croxdale on Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:17 pm 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1113
Quote:
Nevage wrote:
That's interesting Kenny. I know box squats pretty much stop the stretch reflex and powerlifters use this exercise a lot.


Nevage,

The West Side Method of training the Box Squat is to stop/pause on the box and then drive up. The irony is that the West Side Method for training the Bench Press is to use a "touch and go" with a slight bounce.

The same "touch and go" with a slight bounce should be used with the Box Squat. (More on the below).

Simmons WRONGLY believes that the stretch reflex last up to 4 seconds. So in his view, stopping/pausing on the box in the Box Squat does not affect the stretch reflex.

Simmons cites the "4 second stretch reflex rule" from Supertraining (Research by Greg Wilson).

The "4 second stretch reflex rule" Simmons cite is correct. However, you need to read the rest of the research.

Wilson's research states that the stretch reflex quickly begins to disolve. Up to 50% of the stretch reflex is lost in one second.

After 4 seconds, there is NO stretch reflex.

The stretch reflex is like boiling water. Once you turn off the gas/stop heating the water, the water begins to cool off.

That cooling effect takes place with the stretch reflex, as well.

What makes it even more ironical is that in many of the videos of West Side Training lifters are rocking forward as they come off the box to gain momentum to get up. There is nothing with that. However, rocking forward to come off the box is not the same as driving off the box from a dead start.

The ORIGINAL West Side Method was to rock back on the box. As you do lift your heel.

You then rock forward to gain momentum to get up. As you rock forward on the box, you dive your elevated heels into the floor. It amazing how lifting you heels and then driving them into the floor as you get up increase your power.

I learn the ORIGINAL West Side Method from Joe DeMarco a few years ago in a gym. DeMarco along with George Frenn and Bill "Peanuts" West were the powerlifter who came up with Box Squats.

Simmons West Side Box Squatting Method is based on the ORIGINAL West Side Method.

You can develop the stretch reflex with Box Squat by performing a "touch and go" with a slight bounce off the box. This article explains more on that and provides you with other method of developing the stretch. "Squatting: To Be Explosive, Train Explosive. http://www.liftinglarge.com/kennysquatt ... plosive.as

Quote:
Are you more likely to develope mass or strength by not using the stretch reflex assuming your reps are 8-12?


You develop more strength out of the hole/off the box if you stop/pause the weight. That because you have no momentum in getting up.

One of the determinate factors in developing strength, mass, power is the load and your repetition range (as you noted).

As you are aware, Strength is developed with loads of 85% or higher of your 1RM (max) with 1-5 repetitions and 3 minute or longer rest periods.

Mass (hypertrophy) is developed with loads of about 60-80% of your 1RM, with 8-12 repetitions and approximately 2 minute rest periods.

As long as this criteria is met, stopping/pausing the weight or using a "touch and go" with a bounce is optional.

Stopping/pausing the weight or using a "touch and go" with a slight bounce is back to the ice cream analogy...it's ice cream with a different flavor. That meaning that you'll increase strength and/or mass but the training effect is a little different.

Kenny Croxdale


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:53 pm 
Offline
moderator
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Posts: 7578
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea
Great post, Kenny!

Is it really much different then, squatting without the box? If you just "freeze" (to preserve the ice cream) at the bottom for 4 seconds, is it much different than pausing on the box?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:35 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3482
I do Box Squats regularly but more like De Franco describes them. The difference between that and just pausing in the hole is the tension in the muscles - it's all still there when you pause in the hole but not on the box where you let most/a lot of your weight sit completely on the box. I don't really know what this means, scientifically, but both methods deffinitly feel quite different.

I would never recommend bouncing off the box though. I'm sure, spine health aside, it has benefit but the compression on the lower back during a box squat is enough without adding a bounce in my opinion. At the very least, I would wait until you're more advanced, and therefore able to handle those forced better, or exhausted lots of other methods first. Or you were actually a powerlifter and risk seemed worth it.

In my opinion, for stretch reflex you have speed work. To get more explosive out of the hole you have squats with a pause, Box Squats, and squats from pins. I feel you would be much better off exhasuting those methods before considering more specific methods which carry more risk.

Just my view on the bouncing thing. A lot of coaches (that I have a lot of respect for) scoff at the Box Squat because people bounce but i've always felt bouncing was verging on stupidity. It's basically saying, "ok i'm not going to get back up off this box so i'll rebound off it for some extra help". I would say lower the weight and spare the spine... Of course it's not stupidity if you actually intend on doing it for the reasons Kenny mentioned but I personally would be reluctant to recommend it.

On the westside methods and benching - according to all the info available on their site, Westside don't seem to a lot of max effort full ROM benching. They do on DE day and sometimes work up to a max after speed work but isn't the max effort pressing movement made up of their 'special exercises' ? (floor press, board press, band press, etc)

KPj


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:07 am 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1113
Jungledoc wrote:
Great post, Kenny!

Is it really much different then, squatting without the box? If you just "freeze" (to preserve the ice cream) at the bottom for 4 seconds, is it much different than pausing on the box?


Jungledoc,

It definitely much different.

Kenny Croxdale


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:40 am 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1113
Quote:
KPj wrote:
I do Box Squats regularly but more like De Franco describes them. The difference between that and just pausing in the hole is the tension in the muscles - it's all still there when you pause in the hole but not on the box where you let most/a lot of your weight sit completely on the box.


KPj,

I am not familiar with De Franco Box Squatting Method. Could you explain it a bit more?

Quote:
I don't really know what this means, scientifically, but both methods deffinitly feel quite different.


I am not sure what it scientifically mean at time, either.

Quote:
I would never recommend bouncing off the box though. I'm sure, spine health aside, it has benefit but the compression on the lower back during a box squat is enough without adding a bounce in my opinion. At the very least, I would wait until you're more advanced, and therefore able to handle those forced better, or exhausted lots of other methods first. Or you were actually a powerlifter and risk seemed worth it.


I understand the concern regarding bouncing off a box. It's something you need to ease into. "Squatting: To Be Explosive, Train Explosive" http://www.liftinglarge.com/kennysquatt ... osive.aspx explain how to minimize the risk.

For those who prefer not to bounce off the box, other exercise are recommended: Jump Squats, Load Release Jump Squats and Depth Jumps.

Just pick an exercise that trains the stretch reflex.

Quote:
In my opinion, for stretch reflex you have speed work. To get more explosive out of the hole you have squats with a pause, Box Squats, and squats from pins. I feel you would be much better off exhasuting those methods before considering more specific methods which carry more risk.


Pause, Box Squats and Squats from pins can develop speed. However, none of these exercise elicits/develops the stretch reflex.

The only way to develop the stretch reflex it to train it. The only way to train the stretch reflex is with some type of plyometrics, a movement with a bounce in it.

Quote:
Just my view on the bouncing thing. A lot of coaches (that I have a lot of respect for) scoff at the Box Squat because people bounce but i've always felt bouncing was verging on stupidity.


I understand what you saying. I believe it's stupidity if you think it's providing a traning effect that it does not. It stupidity if you disregard safety.

Quote:
It's basically saying, "ok i'm not going to get back up off this box so i'll rebound off it for some extra help".


That is exactly what the stretch reflex does. That what you want at times.

The bounce provides "some extra help" in overcoming momentum. The stretch reflex "sling shots" you back up. Research show you can produce up to 18% more power when the rebound/stretch reflex is elicited.

Athletes train the stretch reflex for that reason, to get "some extra help". Powerlifters are able to squat more with a rebound/little bounce out of the hole.

Athletes can jump higher, further and run faster if they rebound (bounce out of the hole or off the ground, so to speak). Baseball players throw the bar faster if they rebound/whip their bar back before they throw the ball.

However if someone lack strength in the hole of their squat, bouncing out of the hole/off the box isn't going to address the problem. Pausing/stopping the weight in the hole/off the box using heavy loads is going to be a much more effective way of increasing Limit Strength in the bottom position.

There nothing wrong with rebounding in an exercise, providing it address your training goal. If rebounding doesn't address you goal, then it is stupid.

Quote:
I would say lower the weight and spare the spine... Of course it's not stupidity if you actually intend on doing it for the reasons Kenny mentioned but I personally would be reluctant to recommend it.


I understand. Again, just use some type of plyometric movement that develops the stretch reflex that is acceptable to you.

Quote:
On the westside methods and benching - according to all the info available on their site, Westside don't seem to a lot of max effort full ROM benching. They do on DE day and sometimes work up to a max after speed work but isn't the max effort pressing movement made up of their 'special exercises' ? (floor press, board press, band press, etc)


Yes, most of the max effort exercise are "Special Exericse" other than the bench press. The "Special Exericses" are disposable. By disposable, I mean you can overtrain them in a cycle and then throw them away for a while.

In the next cycle, you pick a new "Special Exercise" and then push it to the limit, dispose it and move on to a new exercise in the next cycle.

The theory is that you are able to maximize your strength with "Specialized Exericses" in the muscles used in the bench press (squat, deadlift, etc) without overtraining the bench press.

Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD Biomechanics) Bench Press More Now states the same. By using Disposable "Special Exericse", you increase you bench press strength without overtraining you bench press.

Bench Press More Now, you can get it for $20/plus shipping at http://www.crain.ws/books_powerlifting.html#top

Read it, re-read it and then read it again.

Kenny Croxdale


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:26 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 8:43 am
Posts: 5252
Location: New Jersey
Kenny, I think KPj means this:

http://www.defrancostraining.com/ask-jo ... plate.html

From that link:

"I’m going to assume that you’re teaching all the “classic” box squat cues…arch your back, squeeze the bar, break at the hips before the knees, sit back, push your knees out, etc., etc. Here’s a super-simple analogy I’ve been using to help athletes comprehend what it means to “sit” on the box while staying "tight". Here’s what I do…

I tell the kids to pretend that the box is a scale. Now, if I weigh 225 lbs. and I sit my fat ass on the box/scale like I was sitting on my couch, the “scale” would read 225 lbs. (or very close to it). Next, I stand up and then sit back onto the box using proper box squat form. Once I reach the box, I pause. While “sitting” on the box, I tell them that even though I weigh 225 lbs., if the box were a scale, it would now read about 150 lbs. At this point, they can see that I’m “sitting” on the box differently than my first example. They notice the “tension” in my body and something about the "scale" analogy makes them “get it”. I will then ask them what they weigh. If a kid tells me he weighs 175 lbs., I will tell him to make the “scale” read 100 lbs. each time he sits back on the box. This little analogy/cue has really made a difference in many athlete’s ability to "ease" onto the box during the descent of the box squat. "

I'm assuming that is what KPj is talking about - sitting back, but not relaxing or putting 100% of your weight back on the box. That's how they have me box squat at DeFranco's, although since Joe doesn't coach me directly I never got the scale analogy. But the cues I got amount to the same thing.

Also, they don't have me "rock" the weight at all. It's all coming straight up from the box, feet anchored to the floor. I had a tendency to lift my feet and they corrected that. They do, however, do seated jumps with the "rock and stamp down" method Kenny described. It's weird if I do them and box squats the same session because I want to keep raising my feet, stamping down, and rocking forward.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:51 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3482
Kenny - again, thanks for the information. Good article, too.

I'm not sure if i'm convinced bouncing at the mid-thigh/glute area reduces spine load, though, but, I don't understand it enough to call it either way. I think it's important though that the average beginner/intermediate lifter realise that these methods are for more experienced lifters, so that we don't end up with 150lbs lifters with 135lbs squats spending the next few weeks crashing into a box with the bar on their back.

To try and explain that - I train with a guy who has a really strong squat and DL. He's a fan of bouncing off the floor on the DL and has a rounded back style of lifting. A friend of mine that's started training with me is a complete beginner. he seen this guy DL and said in amazement, "is that not, um... BAD for you?". The lifter said, "well, it depends what stage you're at with your training. It's bad for YOU, yes. Not so much for me". That's kind of what I mean. Although, it still comes down to risk:benefit. I don't think there's much denying that there's more stress on the spine when flexed (or when seated during a squat, or when bouncing). However, experienced lifters, particularly power lifters, have super strong erectors and other muscles which will buttress that force and therefore, tolerate it much better where as, beginners and most intermediates won't have that advantage...

Also, what Peter posted is what I meant by how De Franco describes Box Squats. I actually done this before reading the description, it's what naturally happens if you don't bounce or completely relax on the box. I previously thought of as sitting on the box but remaining tight, but I prefer the way de franco describes it.

Thanks for linking to that book, too. I'll probably pick it up (if I can get the site to ship UK...).

KPj


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:23 am 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1113
Quote:
KPj wrote:
Kenny - again, thanks for the information. Good article, too.

I'm not sure if i'm convinced bouncing at the mid-thigh/glute area reduces spine load, though, but, I don't understand it enough to call it either way.


KPj,

The impact force on the spine is reduced by allowing the mid-thigh hamstrings to hit the box first. It provides cushing effect.

You then continue to push back/roll back to the upper hamstrings until your glutes are on the box. Doing so decreases the loading on the spine for a couple of reasons.

This method is somewhat like running. If you are running with a heel to toe landing, the cushing of your heel absorbs quite a bit of the impact.

Once you hit on your heel, you continue to roll foward to you toe. Doing so decreases the impact force. Research shows this method DECREASES the your landing impact force by about 20%. That a huge precentage.

Another example of "rolling" as a means of decreasing impact force is if you jump off a high platform. To minimize the impact force, once you land, you then roll. That is the basic principle in the recommendations of how to perform a box squat with a slight bounce, you roll you back.

Also, since your spine is NOT at a 90 degree angle to the box, less spine loading takes place than if you back is perpendicular to the box.

Bar placement on your back is a factor. Placing the bar a little lower on your back (as powerlifters do), decreases the spine loading even more.

Speed of decent (how fast you lower the weight) is a huge factor. The faster you allow the weight to drop, the greater the impact force. (Force = Mass X Acceleration).

Thus, what you want to do is slowly lower the weight until you get to a couple of inches from the box. You then allow the weight to drop a bit faster.

By slowing down the decent of the weght in the first part of the squat, you decrease the force.

When you allow the bar to drop the last couple of inches, you evoke (pre-load) the stretch reflex.

There is a tremendous amount of impact force on the spine from other movement.

Walking: 1.5 time body weight. 200 lb walker/300 lbs impact force
Running: 3-5 times body weight. 200 lb runner/600-1000 lbs of force.
Depth Landings: Up to 20 times body weight.
Rugby tackle impact force is 1596 lbs of force.
American Football tackle impact force is 4807 lbs of force. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7tGY-VD ... 1&index=39

Quote:
I think it's important though that the average beginner/intermediate lifter realise that these methods are for more experienced lifters, so that we don't end up with 150lbs lifters with 135lbs squats spending the next few weeks crashing into a box with the bar on their back.


Agreed. The foundation of power and speed are built on when you increase your Limit Strength. Increasing Limit Strength need to be their focus.

However, some plyometric training should be employed. Just find some plyometric movement that you find acceptable and do it.

Quote:
To try and explain that - I train with a guy who has a really strong squat and DL. He's a fan of bouncing off the floor on the DL and has a rounded back style of lifting. A friend of mine that's started training with me is a complete beginner. he seen this guy DL and said in amazement, "is that not, um... BAD for you?". The lifter said, "well, it depends what stage you're at with your training. It's bad for YOU, yes. Not so much for me". That's kind of what I mean.


Great story. "It depend on what stge you're at with you training."

Quote:
Although, it still comes down to risk:benefit. I don't think there's much denying that there's more stress on the spine when flexed (or when seated during a squat, or when bouncing). However, experienced lifters, particularly power lifters, have super strong erectors and other muscles which will buttress that force and therefore, tolerate it much better where as, beginners and most intermediates won't have that advantage...


I understand. The take home message in "Squatting: To Be Explosive, Train Explosive" is you need to perform some type of plyometric/rebound movement to develop your stretch reflex.

We provided other plyometric exercise other than "Plyometric Bouncing Box Squats" that you can use.

If none of those appeal to you, you can find other exercises in books like: Jumping Into Plyometrics/Dr Donald Chu and High Powered Plyometrics/Jimmy Radcliffe. I am sure there are some good books/articles on this.

Quote:
Also, what Peter posted is what I meant by how De Franco describes Box Squats. I actually done this before reading the description, it's what naturally happens if you don't bounce or completely relax on the box. I previously thought of as sitting on the box but remaining tight, but I prefer the way de franco describes it.


De Franco's method works in the development of strength, power or speed training. The determinate factor in which "strength" you are developing is dependent on you training percentage.

The "Fundamentals of Special Strength Training In Sports/Verkhoshanski examines the training percengages that determine which "strength" (Limit Strength, Power or Speed) you are develping.

It also breaks it down into the types different methods of training power and speed.

1) Isometric Ballistic: A movement begun from a pause, no momentum.
Example: Pause Squat. Pausing for 4 second or longer eleminates the stretch reflex.

2) Explosive Ballistic: A movment begun with some momentum prior to driving the weight back up in a squat. Examle: Rocking back on the box in a box squat and then driving up. You initiale some momentum prior to coming off the box.

3) Explosive-Reactive-Ballistic: A movement in which the stretch reflex is evoked. Example: Bouncing out off a box or out of the hole in a squat.

With that in mind, I don't see much point in De Franco's method. Why not just peform a Pause Squat without the box?

Thanks for linking to that book, too. I'll probably pick it up (if I can get the site to ship UK...).

You'rE welcome.

Kenny Croxdale


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group