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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:37 am 
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I've been doing German Volume Training for the past 5 weeks just to mix things up from my normal full body workout and would just like to pass on my observations.

Basically, I normally stick to a high intensity, low volume workout such as 3 X full body, or a type of ABAB (A being half the body, B being half the body) I don't intend to patronise anyone by the way, I just want everyone reading this to understand, in case there's any beginners! :smile:

Observations

My legs are responding very well to 10x10. I stopped doing squats for the first time in about 3 years and decided to do leg press. (first thing I noticed was the increase of flexibilty in my glutes, I could tell they weren't as flexible as they should be because of the tightness and uncomfortableness of trying to do a leg press with my quads to my chest!)

So I'm leg pressing 10X10 of what I used to do for a set of 12. (obviously a LOT of neaural adaption has occured) but what I'm getting at is the measure of progress. I started of very light and by week 5, I'm doing 10x10 of what I used to do my first set of 12 with.

This suggests to me that my legs respond very well to high volume training, (I measured the size of my muscles before and measured them randomly the other day [no signinficant increase, but in 5 weeks no significant value is expected because of neuaral adaption first], there's minimal change.

Basically, what I've discovered in these last 5 weeks is something I could have already guest, but just want to run it through to you guys to back up what I think. Specifically, Kenny, TimD, Ironman, Stuward for the science front of it and I'm sure I'm gonna get answers from every one else anyway from Pdellorto, KPj, JungleDoc etc. (sorry if I missed anyone).

As I said before 10x10, is easy and very progressive with leg press. I also seem to be doin great with the laying leg curl. Biceps and triceps seem to be responding moderately, maybe because it's easier to squeeze an extra rep out I don't know. But my real question is, back and chest!

Basically, my chest (clavicular head) is the most overdeveloped muscle in my body. If you mention my name and weight training to someone I know they'll surely say something about my chest. I limit myself to one exercise for chest (incline BP) and it's specified for the sternal head of the pec but my anterior delts grow from very litle stimulus as well so it's frustrating! I stopped doing tricep dips because of the size my chest was getting! It was, doing wonders for my triceps, but my chest was just getting ridiculous!

Back to the subject...

My chest just cannot handle high volume! I started with 30kg + weight of bar (66 lbs plus bar weight!!!) After 2 weeks I had to reduce it to 25kg (55lbs!!!). Basically the reps have decreased for my chest as well as the weight, my lats are increasing slowly but still don't seem to respond as well as legs and arms.

But, my chest is the most developed muscle in my body as I said and my back's is very thick, but I have quite a high lat insertion so it doesn't look too impressive.

The pattern I found was, chest doesn't respond to 10X10, although it's proportionally the biggest in my body. (does this mean it's predominantly fast twitch, as 10X10 is slow twitch dominated? If it is, I already knew this I just wish my arms would grown in proportion!)

Example of my last attempt of incline BP
10,10,8 x 30kg (66lbs) not including bar
8,7,6,5,5,5,6, x 25kg (55lbs not including bar)

This would suck if I was flat chested, but my chest domintates my physique, so from this I'm pretty sure my chest is made up of majority type IIa and type IIb muscle fibers.

I have the the worst muscle insertion points, high biceps, triceps, quads, hams, lats, forearms and calves! The only positive things of my body are, massive chest without doing anything (upper chest [clavicular head] could always do with work, which is why I concentrate on it). Anterior delts and upper traps grow from barely any stimulus at all (don't do any overhead press because anterior delts look stupid in proportion to the rest of the delts as they grow so fast, have never done shrugs in my life as my upper traps grow from deadlifts yet still people ask how much I can shurug. So basically what you get is, a wide-ish figure with big chest, sizeable arms for frame (but small in proportion to torso). I'm half asian on my mums side and my dad is a classic ectomorph, so you can guess how small my frame is! I'm already classed as overweight with BMI of 27, which I'm pround of since I'm not fat :smile:

I know I've rambled on sorry, but I'm just interested in whether anyone trains in a specific rep range per muscle group. I'm guessing from this that it's only my chest and shoulders that are fast twitch dominant, so more potential for growth there which isn't surprising as they're my biggest muscles. But as always, they're the muscles that I want to maintain while I hypertrophy the others to catch up.

Look forward to your guys replies as always!

(I'll understand if you can't be bothered to read through it all, I've had a lot of coursework recently so I'm in writing mode!)

P.s Ironman I can't log in with firefox, everytime I click log in it takes me back to log in page. Don't know if this is happening to anyone else but just thought I'd put it out there.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:16 am 
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I know I'm not one of the scientific guys, but something to think about:

On any bench press, your triceps and anterior delts are going to give out long before your chest.

Chances are, they're tiring out before your chest does. It's the reason most people do flys and crossovers on chest day along with bench, because bench in itself doesn't typically hit the chest as hard as other exercises.

The reason it's considered superior on chest day is simply because it's a compound exercise, meaning more stimulus. Which is where your problem is coming in.

Some part of your body other than your chest is getting tired before your chest does.

I honestly don't know anyone who's chest tires on bench before tris/delts,


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:38 am 
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Yeah thats a good, point. When I'm hitting failure, I feel in my triceps, as in that last bit where your triceps extend to lock out. But still, my chest is massive and its the weakest part with this amount of volume. I don't want to get it any bigger or anything, I'd just love to know exactly what each muscle responds to best. I used to thing my biceps were mainly fast twitch dominant because they fatigue very fast, but they're doing alright with this volume so maybe more 50/50. I'm interested in anyone that trains so specifically per body part.

Nightfall, I didn't mean to ask the question only to the people in my post, they're the regulars so I assume they'll have an input. But thanks a lot for the reply, much appreciated.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:56 am 
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I am using Firefox (Windows and Linux) and not having any problems. Do you have an older version maybe? Or maybe it isn't handling the php. You could try to reinstall it or upgrade.

As for chest, I would try lowering the sets and reps a little and going heavier. Sticking with incline is probably for the best from what you are saying. Use dumbbells if you can. For triceps, try the incline close grip bench press. That is a good substitute for dips. For lats, I would recommend chins (weighted if needed).

Or if you meant upper chest was over developed, then you need to do flat. Incline is for clavicular, flat or decline is for sternal.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:35 am 
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NightFaLL wrote:
I honestly don't know anyone who's chest tires on bench before tris/delts,


Mine does.

It took a lot of playing around, but found my groove and can very effectively target my chest, even after my tri's are fatigued.

I would say most people training for hypertrophy that can't make their chest bench, need to correct that issue or drop the traditional bench press.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:47 pm 
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Neavage wrote:
P.s Ironman I can't log in with firefox, everytime I click log in it takes me back to log in page. Don't know if this is happening to anyone else but just thought I'd put it out there.


In Firefox, go to 'tools' then 'options'. Then go to 'Privacy' tab and click on 'show cookies'.

Scroll through the list of cookies untill you see the one for exrx.net.

Click on it once to highlight it and then click 'remove cookies' (NOT Remove all cookies!). Then click close.

Close firefox and restart pc/mac and try to login as usual.

If that doesn't work, PM me, dont want to hijack the thread and we'll try something else.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:53 pm 
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nygmen wrote:
NightFaLL wrote:
I honestly don't know anyone who's chest tires on bench before tris/delts,


Mine does.

It took a lot of playing around, but found my groove and can very effectively target my chest, even after my tri's are fatigued.

I would say most people training for hypertrophy that can't make their chest bench, need to correct that issue or drop the traditional bench press.


Well I train for hypertrophy and strength on a rotational basis.

I've always done the powerlifter method of bench, simply to try to save my shoulders as I've heard flaring the elbows is one of the major was to blow a rotator cuff.

I just make sure I do some fly work after I get done and I don't skimp on the weight there at all.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:59 pm 
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NightFaLL wrote:

Well I train for hypertrophy and strength on a rotational basis.


I never really understood when people say this. I mean I train for size, but in order to accomplish this I need to get stronger.

I guess I just always train for both... :lol:

I'm not saying you are wrong or what you are doing is wrong, just thinking out loud.

Quote:
I've always done the powerlifter method of bench, simply to try to save my shoulders as I've heard flaring the elbows is one of the major was to blow a rotator cuff.

I just make sure I do some fly work after I get done and I don't skimp on the weight there at all.


I tuck my elbows as well. If I flare them out my shoulder hurts.

It is easier to do with DB's but I can get it with the BB too. I tuck my elbows, and with the DB's turn my hands a wee bit so the DB's make a triangle and the point of it aims towards my face. Then you just think about you chest, and only your chest. Like an atom bomb could go off down the street and you are too focused to care. Then you press, keeping the DB's apart at the top NO TOUCHING EVER. And only lock out if you need a rest and are going to get a few breaths in with the weight in locked out position.

My shoulders with get banged up if I double my benching after a few weeks, but I don't get significant fatigue or DOMS in my delts or tris from benching anymore.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:24 am 
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nygmen wrote:
I never really understood when people say this. I mean I train for size, but in order to accomplish this I need to get stronger.

I guess I just always train for both... :lol:

I'm not saying you are wrong or what you are doing is wrong, just thinking out loud.


On a general basis, it's the approach, or the philosophy. When training for hypertrophy, the weight on the bar is just a tool to help your muscles get bigger. When training for strength, your muscles are just a tool to help move more weight.

For example, when benching, as you said, you'll "think chest and only chest" - obviously to get your mind muscle connection. For me, chest is probably the last thiing on my mind. I'm trying to get as many muscles involved in the movement as possible. I'm thinking shoulder blades, ass, legs, abs, air, squeezing the bar, etc. However that may be seen as counter productive if I were training for hypertophy.

KPj


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:16 pm 
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KPj wrote:
nygmen wrote:
I never really understood when people say this. I mean I train for size, but in order to accomplish this I need to get stronger.

I guess I just always train for both... :lol:

I'm not saying you are wrong or what you are doing is wrong, just thinking out loud.


On a general basis, it's the approach, or the philosophy. When training for hypertrophy, the weight on the bar is just a tool to help your muscles get bigger. When training for strength, your muscles are just a tool to help move more weight.

For example, when benching, as you said, you'll "think chest and only chest" - obviously to get your mind muscle connection. For me, chest is probably the last thiing on my mind. I'm trying to get as many muscles involved in the movement as possible. I'm thinking shoulder blades, ass, legs, abs, air, squeezing the bar, etc. However that may be seen as counter productive if I were training for hypertophy.

KPj


Dude that makes perfect sense...

Thanks.


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