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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:25 am 
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Im just wondering if you dont train other muscles by only using them as stabilizators then why erector spinae should make exception.

You have to feel stretch in every movement and there is none in squat or deadlift. Actually those two are dangerous exercises because your main movers legs could handle bigger load than back holding pressure of weight.

Best way to train back is doing extensions. Unfortunately machines are horrible for that but you can do them with barbell standing. I cant link exercise because I came up with it myself but I will film it and edit later. I feel like my back has never bern stronger.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:07 pm 
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Like this?

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/ErectorSpinae/BBBentKneeGoodMorning.html

:salute:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:03 am 
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:green: :green: :green:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:51 am 
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In your exercise example hamstrings and glutes are main movers. Back doesnt move weight and only acts as stabilizators.

Edit: uploaded video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxCvAmpsErw


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:10 am 
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I hope you have a tight low back, when performing this exercise, then it's not dangerous. But i think exercises like good mornings or back raises are better, cause they are much more safe for the lower back.

Are you using this execise as assistance for your deadlift?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:47 am 
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excore wrote:
In your exercise example hamstrings and glutes are main movers. Back doesnt move weight and only acts as stabilizators.

Edit: uploaded video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxCvAmpsErw


Essentially a "partial SLDL" as per definition from Lyle McDonald... Would have been my second guess after reading your description in the first post. :wink:

Normally, I believe the core should rather resist movement than training it into a higher mobility, but I understand and know that nobody is always able to lift things with a neutral spine in everyday life (even Rippetoe (Starting Strength) and the sources of the exrx mainpage state this.) and provided one allows an adequate adaptation it would probably be o. k. for advanced lifters...

I personally would not take the risk at this stage of my training and probably never will...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:29 pm 
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Stablization is always worst exercise choice for midbody only because you can handle 2x more weight.

I could maybe dl 180kg (havent bothered with it at all) but with this exercise I can do only 100kg. Also note I'm actually not even doing that exercise correctly and cheating with my glutes. I recently had to drop weight even lower to make it even cleaner to 80kg.

In squat/dl/sldl your back doesn't move the weight. It's your legs that do job and your spine is hugeload of pressure. In my exercise you're going to go failure with much less weight because you're doing positive+negative phase which tires muscle. If I don't do stabilization exercises with any other muscle then I won't do exception with core eather.

Well you can do what you want but I don't want spine troubles at 40 like so many people who trains. There is nothing to gain with squat/dl except boosting your own ego.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:23 pm 
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excore wrote:

In squat/dl/sldl your back doesn't move the weight. It's your legs that do job and your spine is hugeload of pressure.


Deadlift Back Involvement

The back is heavily engaged in the deadlift.

Conventional Deadlift

Research by Dr. Tom McLaughlin (PhD In Exercise Biomechanics) showed that the back beak the weight off the floor, NOT the legs.

The muscle firing sequence is: Back > Legs > Back.

Sumo Deadlift

The back is engage in the Sumo Deadlift but not to the same extent as the Conventional Deadlift.

The muscle firing sequence is: Legs > Back.

Stiff Leg Deadlifts

The lower back and hamstrings dominate this movement.


Quote:
Well you can do what you want but I don't want spine troubles at 40 like so many people who trains. There is nothing to gain with squat/dl except boosting your own ego.


Nothing To Gain

The squat and deadlift two of the best strength training movement you can preform.

The are "Functional" for everyday movement and sports.

Any exercise can create problem if it is performed incorrectly.

To insure that no injury occurs in any movement, don't get off your couch.

Kenny Croxdale


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:20 am 
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Yes back is activated in deadlift but it doesn't move the weight. Your back stays and should stay straight. Which means you're training your back statically ignoring totally positive and negative phase.

I could train abbs doing planks with 60kg on my back statically but I can only move 30kg doing isolated movement (without assist of hip flexors). It just shows you how much you're stronger doing static exercises because you don't move weight that muscle.

It's like training chest by holding 2x more weight at top and not moving it even inch. Doesn't make sense. So why on earth would anyone be dumb enough to train midbody statically when discs are your most vulnurable place in your body.

"Functional" is abused and misused term. You're functional in your sport by just practising your sport. If you want stronger muscles squat/dl is not only way to train legs.

I suggest stepping out from cave and see the light.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:33 am 
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excore wrote:
Yes back is activated in deadlift but it doesn't move the weight. Your back stays and should stay straight. Which means you're training your back statically ignoring totally positive and negative phase.


Research

You a clueless. Research has demonstrated that back breaks the weight off the floor.

However, you either canNOT read (understand word that are strung together) or are delusional.


Quote:
I suggest stepping out from cave and see the light.


Ignorance

You have NO backgound in biomechanics or science.

You have not practical "real world" experience.

However, you are a self proclaimed genius and expert in this area.

"You can fix stupid"...which you are.

So, I can't help or fix you.

"Well, I am done here."
viewtopic.php?t=9652

Your post April 4th, 2014 stated this.

So, what kind of dumb are you?

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:19 pm 
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I think problem here is that you have wrong impression what erector spinae does. I try to demonstrate you with pictures. I added dots at start because it doesnt allow spaces.

Here is human

Here is human uppertorso in deadlift position

.......o <--- head
....../
...../
.../
.../--- <-- midbody


here is human torso when he has lifted the weight

o <-- head
|
|
|
|--- <-- midbody


You think it's back that moved weight but it's not. It's glutes and hamstrings that pushed your upperbody back. Back was straight. Only objective of erector spinae (or lower back) was to fight against gravity so it doesn't bend like this:

........(
......(
....(
....(
.....(
......(

Lower back doesnt move the weight it acts as stabilizator.



I returned simply because I care for people. I want people to be healthy.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:53 pm 
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The spine is a series of joints that each have a small range of motion. The movement at each joint is very small. Since we know that isometerics have a reasonable carry over to about 15 degrees of joint movement, then at each joint of the spine, isometrics are all that is required. On top of that, you add the risk of bending the spine under load and you risk collapsing the disks at the edges. Training the back isometrically keeps the disks stacked safely on top of each other. Therefore, moving the spine dynamically under heavy load is asking for trouble. Deadlifts and other lifts with a neutral spine will effectively train the back even if there is no movement of the spine.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:14 pm 
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lol... you are just a troll, excore... Not totally clueless but being half-informed and drawing and promoting the wrong conclusions, which is even worse...

You stated:
Quote:
... So why on earth would anyone be dumb enough to train midbody statically when discs are your most vulnurable place in your body. ...


Nevertheless you promote an (weighted) exercise that puts the invertebral discs under repeated stress. Compression on one side, Tension on the other side. (Read anything from Stuart McGill lately?) And you want people to be healthy? Really? Sorry to be honest, but considering your posting history on this board, you are the last person people should listen to regarding training advice.

Other arguments you gave just don`t have any correllation to the topic, like you being able to use more weight with Planks compared to Crunches or Situps. This doesn`t make one or the other an automatical better choice to train for some people (or "everybody" like you always say)... "Importance of Context" like Lyle McDonald likes to emphasize...

Do us a favour and stop that nonsense immediately.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:40 am 
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I dont understand logic here.

How does 200kg weight for training legs in expense of your back is better than doing full range of motion with 80kg? Which is bigger stress for your discs 80 or 200?

Actually I change my mind. I dont care what stubborn people do anymore. If they believe everything theyre told then Ill laugh when they eventually hurt their back. Well they will still get info but not free anymore. They will have to buy my book when I have time to write it.

I have lot of unique training exercises which I had to develope alone and I never even read any book releated to fysiology. For me its like answering question whats 2+2. If other people answer it wrong I cant be sheep and agree with their mistake.

Also Lyle please.. He is sciencenazi and believes every inaccurate study there is like bibble. He should spend less time in pubmed and read something more useful like mathbook instead.


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