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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:41 pm 
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Basically, I am a bit dumb when it comes to all this weight lifting plus diet thing. I try and do my own research and I consider myself having a limited working knowledge of what I'm doing... however with all the conflicting information out there I'm going to try and learn everything I can from the best resource, experienced lifters like you lot! :)

Background info!
Right now I'm trying to bulk from my current weight 77kg~ (up 1kg from very recently which I am pleased with!) I'd like to hit my target weight of 85-90kg lean.

I'm around 180cm so ; 5ft 9/10

First question 1)

This question is really about exercises;

Deadlifts and back squats are quite lower back intensive I know this. So, considering I try and lift heavy every workout is it wise to do both of these in the same week? Or should I do back squats one week and deadlifts the next?
Right now I've been thinking that I can do front squats and deadlifts in the same week, since front squats dont engage the lower back as much.
Does that sound right? Also do back squats have a large advantage over front squats? I know you can shift more weight with back squats.

Is it safe to try and Military Press heavy twice a week? Will I develop shoulder/wrist problems from doing this? (I have no issues so far).

Is it a bad idea to combine the Military Press and Bench Press on the same day? I usually find my triceps quite fatigued from doing Military then Bench. I understand its okay to do Bent Over Rows and Bench Press in the same day since they're kinda opposite movements, but I feel the military press has too much carry over.
It should be noted here I'm not TOO bothered about the bench press. I want to build my chest enough that I don't end up out of proportion but I dont want to focus on it.

When doing cleans, if you feel the rep isn't going that great (like your technique is off or something) is it better to just instantly drop the bar to avoid injuries? I recently hurt my wrist a little doing cleans because I tried to keep going with the rep when I knew I was doing it wrong. Infact now writing out this question I feel its kinda self-evident I should abort the rep haha.

Related to this - I feel really self conscious If I drop the bar because I know everyone is looking at me. Is it generally frowned upon to do that?

Now I understand machines are pretty damn $h1t, but is the Leg Curl machine worthwhile? Since that targets the hamstrings directly. Or would I be better doing straight legged deadlifts? (I always feel my hamstrings when doing these, this might be a flexibility problem though)

Question 2) The routine!

I've been playing about with various exercises for a while now. I'm slowly building up a routine from a basic framework someone gave me.

I would like you guys to critique my routine! I want to focus on compound exercises with small amounts of isolation exercises. I'm not really building to look great (although that would be fine :D) I'm mostly concerned with strength.

Before I go into my routine I want to say that I go 4x a week. I go on the days I am in uni (uni gym) so tues, weds, thurs, fri

Is it really bad that I dont have a rest day ? Should I just go on monday anyway and skip wednesday?

Sets x Reps

Day1:
Deadlift or Back Squat 3x5 or 5x5
Calf Raise 3x10
Leg Curl 3x5
Pull ups 3x5 ( at least, I find pull ups a really on/off exercise )
Tricep Pushdown 3x5
Kick Backs 3x5

Day2:
Military Press 5x5 (i'll drop the weight until I can complete the full 5x5, but this means I might do like 1x3 of other weights )
Cleans 3x5
Bent Over Rows 5x5
Bench Press 5x5
Bicep Curls 3x5
Barbell/Dumbbell Shrugs 3x10

Day3:
Front Squat 5x5
Calf Raise 3x10
Leg Curl 3x5
Tricep Pushdown 3x5
Kick Backs 3x5
Pull Ups 3x5

Day4:
Military Press 5x5
Cleans 3x5
Bent Over Rows 5x5
Bench Press 5x5
Bicep Curls 3x5
Barbell/Dumbbell Shrugs 3x10

I notice now that I'm writing it all out this workout could be a little over-intense haha. I should maybe make 2 of the days a lighter day?
Also a glaring omission of core/ab exercises but I feel like I get a lot of this on Sundays ( I do martial arts tricking which involves a lot of core muscles )


Okay Question 3) The diet!

This is going to be briefer than the other questions since I think my diet is pretty decent.

I eat quite cleanly. I want to try and put on as little weight as possible while bulking, so I don't mind bulking up a bit slower than usual. Obviously I can't have a 6pack while getting a lot bigger but ya know!

So I'm wanting to reduce my carb intake, I was thinking I'll only eat a lot of carbs with my post-workout meal. This includes my protein shake, some fruit and then sandwiches and nuts ( this is my carbs ). Is this enough carbs to support bulking?

I might occasionally find carbs at other times during the day but I'm going to try and limit the intake as much as possible. As well as eating every 3 hours ( or as often as possible ).

I'm afraid I haven't sat down and worked out the calories and everything that I consume everyday - but I do eat more than anyone I know :P
If it's really worthwhile to have a food book then I'll look into it, otherwise I thought just eating a lot while keeping carbs down is enough to let me build while not getting overly fatty!

Bloody hell, I think thats enough for now hahah.

If no one wants to sit and read all this I totally understand.

but if I do get some help thats great!

Thanks for your time :twisted:

Much Love,

David

xxxxxx


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:05 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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well David this is your lucky day, I am bored as hell with nothing better to do than answer your questions. I should point out that I am nowhere near one the of biggest and strongest guys on here but I will certainly help as much as I can.

You can do squats and deadlifts in the same week, just give it a few days rest between. You may find as you get stronger that you need longer and longer between the sessions as they really take their toll. As a beginner though you shouldn't have too much to worry about. I like to do them both in the same workout, I deadlift with heavy, low reps, and squat (front squat usually) with high reps after. Peop[le may cluck their tongue and shake their head at this but Recovery and work capacity are a very individual thing.

So I say again, squat and deadlift in the same week. You don't have to worry about needing longer recovery until you are waaaaaaaaaaay stronger than you are now (we're talking YEARS into the future).

Military press is fine twice a week too, good for you for not developing the bench obsession that is so common! Just be sure to do AT LEAST as much pulling (rows, chins etc) as you do pressing. I personally try and do twice as much pulling as I do pressing, because my shoulders are fragile, delicate things that need constant TLC.

If you're training upper body twice a week you could always press first then bench one workout, then bench first press second next workout. I personally have been doing military press before bench for the last couple of months and have actually gotten stronger on BOTH moves so I think it's fine.

As you already suspect, abort reps on cleans the minute they go bad, and stop sets of cleans the minute there's a loss in power. Olympic stuff is all about pulling fast, so if you slow down, it's bad news.

Dropping the bar is kinda scary at first, but if you are using bumper plates then you aren't doing anything wrong. After a while it starts to feel pretty badass.

your routine looks ok, but I would take the numbers of reps on the isolation stuff up to like 8-12 reps at a time. You also don't need to do push-downs and kick backs on the same day (i actually think kick backs suck like a dyson, but that's just me). Also, you'll regret not adding in any isolation stuff for mid/rear delts. You mark my words.

And yeah I personally would prefer to train mon, tues, thurs, fri but whatever, if it's working for you then don't change just because I said so. Only you can judge whether or not you are getting enough recovery time. If you feel you are fine the way it is, then keep it the way it is.

as for your diet, well as a beginner you can get away with pretty much anything (within reason). At 5' 10" and 77kg there's room to pack on a fair bit more beef, so don't be scared of carbs. Just don't get your carbs from cakes or sweets or irn bru and you'll be fine. remember your body LOVES carbs for energy for working out so make sure you have some around your workout window. Also, make sur you are gettng at least 1g of protein per lb of your bodyweight. You would not believe how important that is. Get it from shakes, chicken, beef, gerbil, whatever. Just get your protein in.

Phew! I think that's it. If i missed anything then let me know.

I'm scared now in case a more knowledgable poster comes in and tears my reply to shreds, thus meaning I've wasted the last ten minutes


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:08 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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oh yeah and whereabouts in glasgow do you train? I lift at the gym at Cali uni


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:52 pm 
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I have a reply ready to go but for some reason the php routine is owning me.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:58 pm 
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Quote:
Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /forum/posting.php on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.



Why would I be getting this error when trying to post my reply?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:06 am 
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Starting Strength, is all you need, for now.

Your program is more of a body building routine. Also getting stronger and wanting to gain weight is not something that is easily done while eating clean. I like to eat low-carb but get a lot of my carbs through milk and shakes. I bet you any money that If you start a strength training regime and drink a gallon of whole milk a day, you wont regret it.

not only can you squat and deadlift in the same week but on the same day! This is the starting strength program:

Workout A
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Deadlift 1x5

Workout B
Squat 3x5
Press 3x5
Power Cleans 5x3

You could change it around a little, like adding chin-ups and/or rows.

Anyway the good thing about be a novice is that you should be able to add weight to the bar ever workout. You may need to consume mass amounts of calories for this to occur.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:14 am 
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Velcropop wrote:
Quote:
Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /forum/posting.php on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.



Why would I be getting this error when trying to post my reply?
The Wizards didn't like what you wrote.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:16 am 
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Location: Glasgow, Scotland
I cant reply to this thread!!

edit; why is this forum hating on me :(

I cant respond to everyone - everytime I do a half decent sized post it's all 'naw'

Thanks for the big reply robert, I really appreciate it
I train at the Glasgow Uni Gym. We only have 1 power rack and 1 platform
so it gets kinda busy!

Quote:
your routine looks ok, but I would take the numbers of reps on the isolation stuff up to like 8-12 reps at a time. You also don't need to do push-downs and kick backs on the same day (i actually think kick backs suck like a dyson, but that's just me). Also, you'll regret not adding in any isolation stuff for mid/rear delts. You mark my words.


Alright so if I drop kickbacks - what mid/rear delt stuff would you recommend? Something like upright rows?


edit; haha building it up slowly so it lets me post...

Velcro I keep having hte same problem as you !
I really appreciate you taking time to write a reply even if its not working


Jebus, Thanks for the reply, I have a basic strength down on those movements. 100kg squat deep. 130kg deadlift. 75kg bench. 50kg Press. 60kg cleans (learning them first before I ramp up the weight - could do more)I need to expand my routine to push my progression further now I think. Thanks for the feedback

Jungledoc - The wizards are causing a problem for me too :(


thanks everyone :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:27 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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ya upright rows are ok, they can be quite hard on the shoulder though. If you can do it without pain then wire in. If not, lateral raises will suffice. For rear delts I would do either rear delt flyes or face pulls. You could even do both, fac pulls don't tend to hit my rear delts as much as the rear delt flyes, but they're an excellent upper back movement. Really good for shoulder health.

I've lifted in the Glasgow Uni gym, you're right it is way too crowded.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:33 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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I'm struggling to post now too. I forgot to say earlier, I think you should switch to an upper/lower split. Your routine now has you using your arms every single day This is not good.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:36 am 
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I see no purpose in upright rows if you're doing cleans and presses. They don't provide anything new and they force the shoulders into internal rotation which can wreck your rotator cuff. I'd drop it all together.

I second the upper/lower split if you're training more than 3 times/week.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:22 am 
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stuward wrote:
They don't provide anything new and they force the shoulders into internal rotation which can wreck your rotator cuff.


Why is it more harmful for the shoulder joints if they are forced into internal rotation and then moved around?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:04 am 
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I was being too general. It's using a barbell with too narrow a grip and too much weight to do upright rows that causes the problem, which is the way most people do them. If you use dumbbells your shoulders are not locked in a compromising position and there is no problem.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:05 am 
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Big posts don't work for me. For more infor:
http://www.musclemagfitness.com/bodybui ... t-row.html


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:28 am 
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stuward wrote:
I was being too general. It's using a barbell with too narrow a grip and too much weight to do upright rows that causes the problem, which is the way most people do them. If you use dumbbells your shoulders are not locked in a compromising position and there is no problem.


Sorry but I was also being general in asking that why some upper body exercises with internal rotation of the humerus (?) tend to be bad for the shoulder joints. But your last post answered my question, thanks!


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