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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:23 pm 
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Rik it sounds to me like you are presuming the persons actual Max was known, and that the Rep * 1/30 factor applied to that day will detemine the current Max. Maybe neither of those is precise enough.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Proper Knob wrote:
Rik-Blades wrote:
Am I missing something? Now someone tell me I got the whole 531 incorrect....... :error:


The next cycle you add weight to your training max. For example, if your training max that you work out your percentages from is 100kg you get for the final sets each week -

5 x 85kgs+
3 x 90kgs+
1 x 95kgs+

Next cycle you training max will increase to either 102.5kgs or 105kgs. I'll pick the latter, so you new cycle will be

90 x 5+
95 x 3+
100 x 1+

And then the next cycle the max will increase again to 110kgs etc etc. So even though your only getting the minimum reps the weight is increasing.


Yes, but the max is calculated from the all out sets. If you do the minimum, you dont get stronger, even though the weight is heavier, you didn't lift it enough to progress. How can I get stronger lifting 100kg once, when my 1RM is 105kg?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
Rik it sounds to me like you are presuming the persons actual Max was known, and that the Rep * 1/30 factor applied to that day will detemine the current Max. Maybe neither of those is precise enough.


Yes, I'm a Technician by trade and I presume nothing. I have to know my maxes, so to begin with, I test them.

Because of that, I find the 1RM calcualtion that Wendler recommends using to find your max most effective. I dont just add x to the bar every cycle, I find out what my best wave was, and use that. That way, you dont have a rep/weight to beat, you cant do that, the weight is NEVER the same again, its ALWAYS heavier.

Lets say, for example, this week I Squatted 100kg for ten reps, next week my goal is NOT 100kg for 11, its going to be 102.5 for 9. If I manage 9, I got stronger

So what i'm saying is, the rep target moved because the weight increased. So my goal is never BEAT the reps, its get the number of reps needed to progress only. Leave them in the tank if you want, or not. Doesn't matter really, if you happen to have a really good day and get 13 reps with the 102.5, it will probably bite you in the ass next cycle.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Rik-Blades wrote:
Yes, but the max is calculated from the all out sets.


I typed a big long post out but i think i see where the problem. The max isn't calculated from the all out sets, they have no bearing on what weights you shall be using next cycle. The training max (the weight that you used to calculate the %'s) is just increased by either 2.5kgs or 5kgs, depending on how much you want to increase. For example if the training max is 100kg we get -

85 x 5+
90 x 3+
95 x 1+

It doesn't matter what reps you get from those sets, the training max next cycle will only go up by 2.5kg or 5kg.

Have we 'connected' or are we still talking past each other?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:14 pm 
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Proper Knob wrote:
Rik-Blades wrote:
Yes, but the max is calculated from the all out sets.


I typed a big long post out but i think i see where the problem. The max isn't calculated from the all out sets, they have no bearing on what weights you shall be using next cycle. The training max (the weight that you used to calculate the %'s) is just increased by either 2.5kgs or 5kgs, depending on how much you want to increase. For example if the training max is 100kg we get -

85 x 5+
90 x 3+
95 x 1+

It doesn't matter what reps you get from those sets, the training max next cycle will only go up by 2.5kg or 5kg.

Have we 'connected' or are we still talking past each other?



Lol...no, but I have just worked out where we are.

I'm past the 2.5-5kg beginner increases and i'm on the stalled 'section' of 531. Thats where wendler recommends using the max effort sets to determine the next cycle. I'm afraid i've forgotten what happens at the start!

See! I told you it would be my fault... :cheers:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:27 pm 
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Rik-Blades wrote:
Lol...no, but I have just worked out where we are.


We got there in the end!!!! :grin:

I posted this in another thread, it's a big questions and answers about 5/3/1. It was on Wendler's training log a while back. Number 10 has advice on what to do if you stall -

http://asp.elitefts.net/qa/training-log ... 083&tid=63

Hope that helps.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:34 pm 
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Hey, but hang on...It doesn't matter what system you use to add weight to the bar, how does a person get stronger say by lifting your 10RM for just 5 reps? Just doesnt make sense to me!
You simply cant progress on 531 using the minimum reps, unless you started out way....way...way too light. In which case you're not progressing, just catching up.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:38 pm 
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Proper Knob wrote:
Rik-Blades wrote:
Lol...no, but I have just worked out where we are.


We got there in the end!!!! :grin:

I posted this in another thread, it's a big questions and answers about 5/3/1. It was on Wendler's training log a while back. Number 10 has advice on what to do if you stall -

http://asp.elitefts.net/qa/training-log ... 083&tid=63

Hope that helps.


Interesting, but thats not what he says in his book (at least not in the one i'm reading)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:01 pm 
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Oscar, I'm losing track of the two threads, but if I rephrase your original question as,

"So what's up with doing the all out sets?"

and then take two things you've said:

"I need sort of a cross between SL and 5/3/1"

and

"I don't seem to need that much recovery"

Then I would put it all together and say if you do 5/3/1 with the all out sets then your two statements listed above will no longer be true. You'll come to look forward to entire deload week.

As for the too-many-exercises thing, here's what happens when you simplify and do the all-out sets. Either:

a) You're thinking about dinner and what to watch on Netflix because "merely" three sets does not hold your attention, or

b) You're totally focused on those 3 sets, and the top all-out set, because that's the only reason you're there that day.

I've found myself in both mindsets. I'll leave it as an exercise for the student to work out which one has led to more gains.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:17 pm 
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yea wrong thread. ;0

So youl like 5/3/1 so you think less is better.
I leave it up to you to see the bias.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:35 pm 
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That's right, but we're talking about what if you leave off the "+".

You're still getting stronger every time you lift 85% of your max. Lift 85% for 5 now, 90% for 3 a few days later, 95% for 1 a few days later. Lifting 85 or more % of your max will be increasing your ability to lift more, just not as fast. Your calculation only makes sense if it's your 5-rep max. If it's not, then your true 1RM is higher, you just can't prove it empirically at the moment.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:57 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
That's right, but we're talking about what if you leave off the "+".

You're still getting stronger every time you lift 85% of your max. Lift 85% for 5 now, 90% for 3 a few days later, 95% for 1 a few days later. Lifting 85 or more % of your max will be increasing your ability to lift more, just not as fast. Your calculation only makes sense if it's your 5-rep max. If it's not, then your true 1RM is higher, you just can't prove it empirically at the moment.


Agreed.

But Wendler has us lifting 85% of 90% (of our 100%) (if that makes sense) so the effect of lifting 'minimum reps' is even less. I guess the only wave that will challenge us is the 3rd wave, where 95% of 90% (of 100%) is roughly 85% (of 100%). If you do that for 1 rep...just seems a waste of time to me, missing the point of 531 completley. :scratch:

The other option...is that I have a brain tumour...would explain a lot in my life.

This thread seems a little off track now...oops!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Rik-Blades wrote:
This thread seems a little off track now...oops!


Yea.
Fine with me. If anyone else has opinions on the difficulty, or learning curve, or benefit or whatever of trying to stop with one left in the tank, I'm all ears.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:12 am 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
Rik-Blades wrote:
If anyone else has opinions on the difficulty, or learning curve, or benefit or whatever of trying to stop with one left in the tank, I'm all ears.


It's a hard one to gauge and can really only be learned by experience. For me, i stop when my technique feels like it is beginning to break down. How do i know when that happens? I do it by 'feel', that nice undescriptive word which doesn't help you in any way. For squats, i notice i start to lean forward a bit, when that happens i stop. Deadlifting, i can feel when my lower back starts to arch the wrong way. Benching is a bit trickier, in days gone by i would be happy squirming away under the bar with my technique flying out the window. Now as soon as i think the bar speed has decreased enough i rack it, for me once the bar speed has decreased enough i start to grind the rep and grinding usually means my technique has gone. At the moment i'm aiming towards better technique with good quality reps. The grind can come later.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:19 am 
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Proper Knob wrote:
It's a hard one to gauge and can really only be learned by experience. For me, i stop when my technique feels like it is beginning to break down. How do i know when that happens? I do it by 'feel', that nice undescriptive word which doesn't help you in any way. For squats, i notice i start to lean forward a bit, when that happens i stop. Deadlifting, i can feel when my lower back starts to arch the wrong way. Benching is a bit trickier, in days gone by i would be happy squirming away under the bar with my technique flying out the window. Now as soon as i think the bar speed has decreased enough i rack it, for me once the bar speed has decreased enough i start to grind the rep and grinding usually means my technique has gone. At the moment i'm aiming towards better technique with good quality reps. The grind can come later.


^This :cheers:

Think "Technical Failure". If you know your next rep is going to be messy, don't do it. "If you train to failure, you train to fail". Maybe not so true with isolation type exercises but with the big compounds, let technique be your guide. Your joints AND your strength will thank you.

As for the benefits of leaving one in the tank, I always throw the question back - What are the benefits of deadlifting with the posture of a scared cat, or squatting with the hips shooting up, weight shifting forward, and knees caving in? Reps build form. Messy reps build messy form. Messy form on the big lifts will catch up on you. I would say this is one of the potential downfalls of 5-3-1, which Wendler has even warned against. You have a tendency to turn your AMRAP set into a personal war (do or die). Your last set of squats turn into breathing squats. That's not really the aim, though. Breathing squats are good for like, 3-4 weeks at a time maybe twice a year. Not 3 weeks of every month.

Training to technical failure is also basically the same as when I have talked about fighting "form" vs fighting "weight". For a while, even years, when your form breaks down, you will still have another rep or 2 in the tank. So, when it gets to max sets, you basically fight form/technique more than the weight. You're fighting to maintain form more than anything else. Eventually, though, by doing this what happens is your technique will very rarely change, even on max sets. A good example is to just look up good powerlifters. Particularly squat and bench press videos. The only difference between the opening lift and the last (and most difficult) attempt is bar speed. Form is almost always identical. Even when you see some videos of failed lifts, technique hardly changes even right up to the point that they fail (even better if you can see them in training, and not in competition, where they tend to unleash the "do or die" mentality). At this point, they're not "leaving some in the tank". They have just spent years "cementing" good technique and in my view, this is half the reason they have been able to keep getting stronger for years.

Remember strength training is a skill.

In practical terms, there are going to be times when you over shoot or under shoot i.e. you'll do another rep and it'll be messy or you'll fail, or you'll end the set and realise you could of done another 1-2 reps. However over time you'll hone the skill and get really in tune with what your body is telling you.

KPj

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