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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Sat: Upper1
Sun: Lower1
Tue: Full body1
Thu: Full body2
Sat: Upper2
Sun: Lower2
Tue: Full body3
Thu: Full body4

Emphasis, as well as Volume and Intensity are rotated thru the two week cycle, so one weekend its Heavy Knee / Lighter PosteriorChain, then next, I"m doing Heavy Deadlifts, and lighter Front Squats.

I'm adopting a bit of a psuedo Madcow approach to percentages and light/heavy days to work up my lifts, that have stalled on a linear progression basis.

Anyway.
Any pitfalls for this sort of routine in general?

I"ll take questions, no charge.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:47 pm 
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I still think a good old fashioned upper/lower split would be better. If you think about it, the way you've set it up means you're recovering less.

For example, if you train upper on Sat, then lower on Sun, then upper on Tuesday, you've only given your lower body 1 day of recovery, whereas if you trained upper on tuesday, then your lower body on Wednesday (I know you said Thursday...) everything's had a good long recovery. I couldn't train my legs then two days later do full body.

Also, you're doing 4 different full body workouts over 2 weeks? While I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, it seems a little excessive. Something that's definitely helped me in my training is picking a group of exercises and just doing those exercises every workout. It's easier to make progress on just a few exercises than a million. There are some folks who do a different workout every time and make awesome progress, but that's the kind of intuition that comes from having trained for years I think.

just my tuppence worth. Would it be so horrible just to do 5/3/1?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:21 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
Would it be so horrible just to do 5/3/1?


He took my line.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:42 pm 
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KenDowns wrote:
robertscott wrote:
Would it be so horrible just to do 5/3/1?


He took my line.


It would be if I wanted to train shoulders, legs, back, etc more than 2x a week, AFAIK.

And as far as rest goes, Don't think of it as training legs three times per week, think of it as not training legs 4 days per week. I mean, SS has legs 3 days per week.
If I don't go heavy Squatting each Full Body day, I can get adequate recovery, I figure.

As the program should imply, my recovery and progress necessitates, something between 5/3/1 and SL.

Here's what I wanted and how this evolved, and believe me, it evolved.
Not in order of importance

1. 3 day/wk was not enough activity, I'm an office geek and am wound too tight. Working out is therapuetic
2. More days lifting means more days improving conditioning and getting to eat lots of meat
3. I (and this has been a long time in the making) like having set days for lifting. So, by using splits, I could train 2 days in a row, facilitating 4 days/wk.
4. I like deadlifting 1/wk, Squatting Heavy 2x, along with some Single Leg Work, and Additonal Glute/Ham work. But my conditioning/capacity doesn't seem to be to the point where I can hit it hard enough all on the same night to need more than 72 hours off
5. Regarding Upper Body, I'm not to the point where I stress the Pulling and Pushing muscles enough to warrant doing it only 2x week. Furthermore, with back, chest, shoulders, and arms, it may work better for me to utilize 3 days, rather than 2.

Mainly, just goes to I want to hit many parts more than 2x week. And my progression is still linear on some stuff and not on other.

The 4 different full body days are not all that differnt. On Upper, overall, I have 2 Horz Pulling, 2 Horz Pushing, 3 Vert Pulling, and 2 Vert Pushing movements in total in the program. There are also 1 accessory for lats, biceps, triceps, and traps, and planks, and pallof presses to program. This just leads to small diffences in workouts. I could force them so only 2 differnt Full Body days, but I see no problems as it is.

What if I presented SS to you, but split Saturday to Sat Upper, Sun Lower, and Full Body Tue and Thur? That's all this is, with bit more volume and variety.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:05 pm 
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What exercises would you want to throw in there?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:40 pm 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
1. 3 day/wk was not enough activity, I'm an office geek and am wound too tight. Working out is therapuetic


I do four days/week on 5/3/1. Same reason.

Oscar_Actuary wrote:
2. More days lifting means more days improving conditioning and getting to eat lots of meat


Can't say I haven't thought the same thing

Oscar_Actuary wrote:
3. I (and this has been a long time in the making) like having set days for lifting. So, by using splits, I could train 2 days in a row, facilitating 4 days/wk.


same here. Press is Saturday, Deadlift is Sunday, Bench is Tuesday, Squat is Thursday. In addition there are 8 more slots for accessories, but I'm getting ahead of myself:

Oscar_Actuary wrote:
4. I like deadlifting 1/wk, Squatting Heavy 2x, along with some Single Leg Work, and Additonal Glute/Ham work. But my conditioning/capacity doesn't seem to be to the point where I can hit it hard enough all on the same night to need more than 72 hours off

So you squat on Deadlift day.

Oscar_Actuary wrote:
5. Regarding Upper Body, I'm not to the point where I stress the Pulling and Pushing muscles enough to warrant doing it only 2x week.


One variation of 5/3/1 is to double bench on press day and vice-versa.

Anyway, the nice thing about 5/3/1 is it is more guidelines than program. There are many variables you can play with.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:08 am 
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_Wolf_ wrote:
What exercises would you want to throw in there?


At this time, I was trying not to get to down into the details, but wanted to see if others had opinions on hybrid programs in general. I arrived on it thru tweaks and refinements towards my "permanent program"; and subsequently saw a little about it on the net, but not enough to suss it all out.

In general, here's the list of exercises and their frequency over two weeks
4 Back Squat
2 Back Pin Pause Squat
2 Front Squat
2 Db Static Lunge
2 BB Step Up
2 Deadlift
2 Glute Thrust w/ BB
2 Good Morning
2 Db Row
2 Inverted Row
3 Bench Press
2 Db Decline Press (Neutral)
2 Assist Pull Up
2 Assist Chin Up
2 Hang High Pull
3 Press
2 Push Up, Elevated Feet
2 BB Shrug
2 Lateral Raise w/ Db
2 Db Curl
2 EZ Skull Crusher
3 Plank
3 Pallof Press
1 Suitcase Carry
1 Dead Bug


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:23 am 
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KenDowns wrote:
Oscar_Actuary wrote:
4. I like deadlifting 1/wk, Squatting Heavy 2x, along with some Single Leg Work, and Additonal Glute/Ham work. But my conditioning/capacity doesn't seem to be to the point where I can hit it hard enough all on the same night to need more than 72 hours off

So you squat on Deadlift day.

Oscar_Actuary wrote:
5. Regarding Upper Body, I'm not to the point where I stress the Pulling and Pushing muscles enough to warrant doing it only 2x week.


One variation of 5/3/1 is to double bench on press day and vice-versa.

Anyway, the nice thing about 5/3/1 is it is more guidelines than program. There are many variables you can play with.


First thank you for taking time to try to help me with my decision
But you may be missing the point that I will be doing some legs 3x per week and some upper pressing and pulling 3 days per week I am doing Volume Pressing on Heavy Bench Day (borrowed from Doc) and visa versa, and same with Deads and Squats. But, also, with the Full body days I get in some more upper/lower work.
Its pretty simply a compromise between 2x /week Upper/Lower split and a 3 Full Body / wk plan. Again, what If I'm doing StrongLifts A on Tues, and SL B on Thur, and on Sat doing, Press and Rows or Bench and Chins, and on Sunday doing Squats and SLDL. No one says I"m killing the volume on Upper/Lower days

I'm not trying to come off as "I know more than you, please tell me how good my program is". It's just that the arguments against seem to presume something that is not there, or ignore the existing programs out there, except 5/3/1.

I am stealing the idea of using percentages an periodization for many lifts. Not the same plan or percentages, but some mix.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:53 am 
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What exactly are your goals Oscar?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:09 am 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
In general, here's the list of exercises and their frequency over two weeks
4 Back Squat
2 Back Pin Pause Squat
2 Front Squat
2 Db Static Lunge
2 BB Step Up
2 Deadlift
2 Glute Thrust w/ BB
2 Good Morning
2 Db Row
2 Inverted Row
3 Bench Press
2 Db Decline Press (Neutral)
2 Assist Pull Up
2 Assist Chin Up
2 Hang High Pull
3 Press
2 Push Up, Elevated Feet
2 BB Shrug
2 Lateral Raise w/ Db
2 Db Curl
2 EZ Skull Crusher
3 Plank
3 Pallof Press
1 Suitcase Carry
1 Dead Bug


seriously? That's madness. You are doing far too many exercises. Cut that right down and just hammer the few exercises you've picked. Much easier to progress. Then once you've done those exercises for 6 weeks or so, sub in new ones. You're spreading yourself too thin.

-you don't need to do push ups if you're benching
-you don't need inverted rows if you're doing dumbell rows
-you don't need pin squats if you're already doing front squats AND back squats (frankly I would just choose ONE squat variation)
-you don't need pull ups AND chin ups. Pick one and do it for a month, then next month do the other, then back to the first etc etc

also, in all of that insanity, you don't have a single rear delt exercise.

I think you have to go right back to the drawing board and get rid of all the redundant exercises.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:31 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
also, in all of that insanity, you don't have a single rear delt exercise.


That was an oversite. I had 3 Horz Pulls and 3 Vert PUll, and then, not sure what happened. I do do Cable Face Pulls on all days I do pressing, but its more warm up and not preogrammed. I'll add BB Delt rows back in

I disagree with just about everything else you said there.
What do you base your claim on that I have too many Squat variants, or Pull Ups and Chins in the same program are useless?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:49 pm 
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I just think it's unnecessary, instead of doing 3 different types of squat, just concentrate on 1 and get really good at it. Then when you're good at it, switch to another one and get good at that. Seems like a more sensible way to train to me, although it's just my own opinion.

Also I don't think chin ups and pull ups in the same program is useless, I just think it's redundant. Pick a variation, hammer it for a month, then switch. Much easier to judge progress


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:55 pm 
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Proper Knob wrote:
What exactly are your goals Oscar?

With regards to the parts my Routine impacts most (Fat loss is really high, but more of a diet issue)

Why I train:

Over all strength, especially to perform life activities, for many years to come – I was starting to feel way too old for my age
Stress Management – more effective than playing online poker all night, and cheaper than drinking
Posture and Appearance and Pain avoidance – I’d like to sit up straight and move without pain for years to come
Power and Force. I’m more interested in making sure I can move heavy stuff fast, as I get older and feel that slipping.
To avoid other less enjoyable activties, like studying for Actuarial Exams

That seems about right. But I could benefit from a good Q&A to line up my goals, a sometimes not sure I’m expressing tru feeling, or know them.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:15 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
I just think it's unnecessary,


Front Squats give my lower back a bit of a rest
Chin Ups hit the Biceps too. I do one or the other 4x per 2 weeks because I really want to get away from assistance bands some day. I can give a reason for each one 
Push Ups are easier on the shoulders than Bench, and with elevated feet, they target slightly different. Also, since I can only plank for 40 seconds, I still get a core training effect doing them. My main exercises are Back Squat, DL, Db Row, Pull Ups, Press, Bench. While the others are done generalyl higher volume, lighter weights, or some capacity to support the main lifts.
I may do less volume than you think, so it’s not that much. I do 3x5, or 5/5/5/3/3 on main lifts. And maybe 3x8 or similar on accessory/assistance. Higher Volume move might be 4x10 or 5x8.

I’ve asked on here how often you should do an exercise for it to matter. That is, say I only did lateral raises once every 20 days, does it really matter then? I don't think here I’m spreading too thin. Yeah, maybe my chest would grow more / get stronger if I only did flat BP and skipped the Push Ups, but I’d like to be able to do 20 clapping elevated pushups one day too. And I don’t see why neglecting the Bench Press for 3 months to pursue that makes any sense.

I’m glad you said it was your opinion but I’m certain you are not alone. I just need more sound convincing that it will impact my goals negatively. I progress on most everything because I make myself add weight or reps and track all sessions. Presuming I keep one program in place for several weeks, I’ll be able to start judging the pros and cons better

One question I have is advice on scheduling the Upper and Lower consecutive days. Upper first make sense? Any thoughts on which exercises it would be best to save for the Full body days because they don’t play well in a back to back Upper/Lower set up?

Thanks again, I am very appreciative of feedback


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:02 pm 
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it's cool man I understand why you're doing it, and I don't necessarily think it's a bad routine, I just think you'd progress faster if you concentrated on fewer exercises. It's probably just my own personal bias to be honest, I made some good progress over the summer by having quite a simple routine and hammering the same exercises over and over. First time I'd ever really done that.

different strokes for different folks. As for the 20 clapping push ups thing, I bet if you got your bench press up and bodyweight down you'd hit that goal without even having to train for it.


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