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Exercise Prescription on the Net
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:29 am 
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TimD wrote:
I do think you may try to overthink things, but anyway, give it a shot, then judge it.


Tim just took the words right out my mouth. Try if for six months, but you have to put a log in the journals section.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:35 am 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
I am not seeing the similarity. Fwiw, when I first got my gym set up, I was doing 2-3 movements per workout. It changes often, usually, 5. Usually 3 large lifts, 1 core and 1 accessory. I’ve never done more than 6 -7 on one day. The fact you are leading off w2ith this analogy, and you are one of the best here, makes me wonder why there is so much misrepresentation of my program.


The similarity, as I seen it, was the need to cover every single muscle in the body with a specific exercise of it's own. The comparison from yours to Matt Z's program was simply to show the opposite end of the spectrum. With about 10% of the exercise selection as you, he still covers the same muscles and movements, at least to an extent. As for which one is "better" - probably whatever one you're not doing, either that or, whatever one you believe in/will enjoy/will stick to. Kind of irrelevant anyway so, moving on....


Oscar_Actuary wrote:
I stated it in my OP.
“Any pitfalls for this sort of routine in general?”
While I understand my specific goals would help all our experts to build a better program for me, I was thinking some general thoughts of this program might emerge.


Well, in general, I feel the program is generally ok?

Anyway, excuse the sarcasm. Most of my training "philosophy" is about improving "performance". That's general, but I break it down for each client. For example, one specific goal for a new untrained and out of shape female fat loss client may be to do push ups from the floor. Sometimes, they don't even know this is a goal, they just want to lose fat, aren't interested in "performance" (at first), so they just do their program as written and coached. However, I know that improving performance forces change (in physique), and improves health, so "my" specific goals for this woman will essentially take me to "her" general goals, "lose fat".

In your case, and staying with the example above, I don't see a direction to move in. There's nothing to work "back" from. I also have a bit of OCD - I need something to aim for! So, I struggle to give "general" advice. I need some kind of progression towards something. Right now as far as I can see, we're shooting a machine gun full of exercises into the dark. If that is the "general" goal, then I think the program is perfect. In fact, I don't think you can go wrong. You WILL improve in the majority of exercises you are training. Also, your heart seems set on it and I believe this is one of the most important factors - "believing" in what you're doing. Since your heart is set on it, then I would say just go for it.

Oscar_Actuary wrote:
Like “I find doing Lower first makes more sense” Or “Why do you think this is better than 3 Full Days/ week, oscar”


Generally, I put the training day with the biggest priority first in the week. For example, past 6 months I have prioritised Military Press, so Upper is first. If it was Squat, then Lower would be first - that's what makes sense to me.

As for the structure - you're training your full body 3 times per week, over 4 days. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Oscar_Actuary wrote:
or explain why doing both Front and Back Squatting was wasting time, causes a stalemate of sorts.


Oscar_Actuary wrote:

I’m not sure everyone is saying “Why???” to the Upper/Lower/Full/Full as much as they are the list of exercises. I’d like more discussion on the former; and more “proof” that doing two similar movements is less productive, for a general goal like mine.


I think the upper/lower/full/full is fine for what you're training for, and can be for lots of other things.

I sometimes like two similar movements. Actually I do quite frequently. I'm also not against 2 squat variations over one week (i've went with more myself, Box Squat, Front Squat, and OH squat, for example). I think some movement/muscles need more volume i.e. rowing/pulling. I think you need as much as possible. I could to 10 sets of 10 DB rows, or I could do DB rows, then add inverted rows (to get the added "core" benefit), and face pulls (to get the added external rotation and emphasise on rear delts). Infact, last night, I done, in a circuit format - Pull ups, chest supported rows, prone YTWI's, and face pulls. I could of just done DB rows but, I feel the slight variety is more beneficial. I have no "proof", it's just a feeling.

KPj

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:49 am 
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I'll address the bits that relate to me, I'm not great at using the quote function so this might come out a bit muddled...

Oscar_Actuary wrote:
Quote:
Robertscott
ya but when you think about it, I am a bodybuilder.
Your crazy training routine has about a million redundant exercises, and you would be much better condensing it down into something that suits your goals, and to add to that, you would benefit from defining your goals more clearly.


Yes, I realize you are BB’ing and my point was off base; but your hyperbole is frustrating me. My program is not that crazy and redundant. Recall a discussion we had where you stated that doing two similar movements was silly, just do .. yeah it was a 10x10 thread where someone was doing 5x10 + 5x10, two different exercises. You finished by saying you prefer to stick with one and that you had a bias against the other exercise. I asked what’s wrong with doing two similar movements at ½ the volume, I don’t think anyone said there was. I’m not trusting that some of you names RobertScott are always objective. I don’t think my overall volume is crazy and I will adjust that as needed.


Ok I maybe shouldn't have used the word "crazy", it's just sort of the way I talk, everything's a superlative. The word "redundant" would probably have been more constructive. I don't necessarily think doing 2 similar movements is wrong, I just think it's unnecessary. I think it would be a better idea to hammer one variation until progress on it comes to a halt (we all know that after a while the body adapts...) then switch to a different movement. When you come back to the first, you'll be stronger. To use squats as an example, if your back squat stalls, switching to front squats for a while and getting stronger on those'll carryover to the back squats when you come back to doing those. If you've already got every exercise under the sun in the routine, what're you going to switch to when you plateau?

(and I also don't really think you need pin squats until you get much stronger. They're quite advanced.)

It's not your overall volume that I think needs adjusting, it's the number of different exercises.

Oscar_Actuary wrote:
Quote:
Robertscott
It seems to me like you've asked for opinions on your routine, and the response has unanimously been to change it, and your response to that has been "I'm doing it anyway," so why ask?


While I can’t argue with what “seems” to you, I know that I am taking what you all say seriously. I just don’t accept anything everything out of hand. Our realtor quit because I asked too many questions and told her we did not like our k-word referred to as “updated”. I’m simply asking for more than hearsay or preferences. I could post SL no here if it were unknown an 95% would say “change it”. It’s what happens, see Ken’s post.


I know that you take everyone's advice seriously, there's no issue there, and I have to admit that I have no real evidence that doing less exercises'll mean more progress on those exercises. However, I have done a bunch of different routines in my time (this isn't me saying "I've lifted longer than you so you have to listen! Nah na na na nah!", bear with me), and the ones I've had most success with have been WS4SB, GVT and 5/3/1. All of these routines are belters, and the basic structure with all of them is pretty much is 1 heavy compound (say 5RM), followed by 1 assistance compound done for higher reps (5x10 or whatevs) and then a couple of isolation moves for upper back, lat delts, hammies etc just to target weak areas. Admittedly GVT is a bit different, but even that only has 2 compounds and 2 iso moves per session, and the same exercises used every week for 6 week blocks.

Success leaves clues, and when I see programs written by trainers you know are the real deal they all pretty much follow the same format. That's not to say that what you're doing won't work, I just think you're making it more complicated than you need to.

And if you posted stronglifts on here and it were unknown I'd say the same thing as I do whenever anyone posts it: add more iso stuff to make you look awesome!

Having said that, all these points are moot considering the number one thing with whether or not a program will work is whether or not you stick to it, and if having a zillion exercises means you are more likely to stick to the routine, then go for it.

Oscar_Actuary wrote:
My goal is not to Bench Press as much as possible as soon as possible


does not compute, don't you know the bench press is the single biggest indicator or strength, masculinity, virility and general incredibleness in the history of mankind????????


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:12 am 
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robertscott wrote:
does not compute, don't you know the bench press is the single biggest indicator or strength, masculinity, virility and general incredibleness in the history of mankind????????


:cheers:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:50 pm 
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Proper Knob wrote:
TimD wrote:
I do think you may try to overthink things, but anyway, give it a shot, then judge it.

Try if for six months, but you have to put a log in the journals section.


ORLY?

Do you find that to be beneficial?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:52 am 
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robertscott wrote:
does not compute, don't you know the bench press is the single biggest indicator or strength, masculinity, virility and general incredibleness in the history of mankind????????

Whoa! For a minute there, I thought you were being sarcastic, and I was nervous.

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