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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:25 pm 
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ps. Inverted rows hit the rear delts a good bit for me. But, I'll still likely add BB delt Rows


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
Proper Knob wrote:
What exactly are your goals Oscar?

...To avoid other less enjoyable activties, like studying for Actuarial Exams
....


:salute:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:21 pm 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
With regards to the parts my Routine impacts most (Fat loss is really high, but more of a diet issue)


I think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be Oscar. Like Bob says, it would be best to just pick a few exercises and hammer them. You have enough exercises on that program for you and another two people. Less is more, that's advice we could all do with following, me included.

The thing with going into the gym is that you can't train for everything all at once. Some things have to be put onto the back burner. You can't have the physique of a bodybuilder, with the strength of a powerlifter and the flexibility of a weightlifter along with the speed of a sprinter. As Jim Wendler says, if you did, you'd be making millions in the NFL. Unfortunately the rest of us are just mere humans.

If fat loss is your primary goal, gear your program towards that aim. Your program at the moment just seems to be a bit 'scatter-gun' trying to fit everything in., Don't be afraid to put some stuff on the back-burner for a while.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:04 pm 
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You aren’t convincing me. If my goal were to say get my max Back Squats, exclusively, then I see your point. But I’d like my BackSquat and Front Squat to improve. Maybe they both improve more slowly, but are you really saying that a yr from now, had I done them in separate cycles they would both be higher, than doing them in the same cycle? Why? Other than losing focus on proper form, I just don’t see it. There is obvious crossover to help both. Granted, as a fairly new lifter I can benefit from simple programs too, but to say this one would be be less beneficial, I’m confused. Saying its not necessary goes to preson preference. Maybe I prefer variety. If it truly hurts overall progress, then I want to know, and why.

I had posted before about “the minimum number of times to do an exercise per week, to have impact” Generally it was ignored but some consensus that once a week, otherwise, why bother. Also noted was that simlar movements of less volume made sense as much as same movement more volume. Again, you may prefer simpler and less, but why would it be better for me? I don’t want to waste sticknig with a program if it’s clearly deficient; but also, don’t want to change it for the wrong reasons.

As far a fat loss
I may put in some complex or HIIT for finisher, but not at this time. I learned in October, at my size, it's all about diet. And, I'll try to keep the pace up to help conditioning during training.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:44 pm 
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I'm with Robert here. I think I understand where you're coming from, though. Actually, I suspect that your compulsive nature drives you to try to train every little muscle, but you know if you came out and said it, we'd all yell "train movements, not muscles." Knowing that there is a variation that you're not doing, that has a little different effect, worries you. Am I right?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:35 pm 
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while not totally untrue, Doc, I don't buy it entirely. Note for example, I have nothing for the calfs. I do think movements. It's quite balanced with Vert/Horiz, Push/Pull, Knee/Hip. Here is some mroe explanation/excuse for the selection. And when you say you agree with him, you mean, you prefer simple, or you think I'll progress less overall by putting in more variety?

4 Back Squat - Overal leg, can lift most weight of any version. Does it need explantion ?
2 Back Pin Pause Squat - Assitance to Back Squat. Quad focused. Legs weak
2 Front Squat - For lesser weight, great core & upper back stability exercise, saves lower back
2 Db Static Lunge - right leg weaker. Good for core too, anti bending, hip flexors, saves back
2 BB Step Up - (low step) More quad focused then Db Static Lunges, and easier, do higher volume
2 Deadlift - 'nuff said
2 Glute Thrust w/ BB - isolate glutes, assitance to help activate them for other lifts
2 Good Morning - Hammy and lower back focused, & hope it helps me not lean over so much in the hold squatting
2 Db Row - Main Hrz Pulling, save back vs BB. Helps imbalances
2 Inverted Row - I hear its part of a progression to Pull Ups. Also, a bilateral rowing move, seems appropriate
3 Bench Press - Main Hrz Pressing
2 Db Decline Press (Neutral) - assistance, saves shoulders some, helps bring up weaker side
2 Assist Pull Up - Main Vert Pulling
2 Assist Chin Up - I figure I need more practice seeing as I use assistance, these help the biceps as well
2 Hang High Pull - my only Power move. Although, I'm trying to incorporate speed sets on most all warm ups. Seems like such a good overall move
3 Press - Main Vert Pressing move
2 Push Up, Elevated Feet - something easier on the shoulders, and can do on lighter Vert Press days
2 BB Shrug - My traps are weak
2 Lateral Raise w/ Db - Medial Delts, seems standard to add an accessory for these
2 Db Curl - Not overkill right?
2 EZ Skull Crusher - meh, maybe hardest to justify given the pressing. But so quick and probably not impacting recovery. So far ,nto my cause for failing presses, so cosmetic at this time
3 Plank -
3 Pallof Press
1 Suitcase Carry
1 Dead Bug


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:34 pm 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
And when you say you agree with him, you mean, you prefer simple, or you think I'll progress less overall by putting in more variety?
Yes.

Your argument for each exercise is valid. It is the total that is over the top! It's like (desperately grasping for a convincing analogy) like singing the praises of every kind of food in the world, and then thinking you have to eat some of every dish in some limited period of time. Really, just pick a nice complement of assistance exercises to do for a few weeks, then change out a few of them. I think you'll do better that way.

Speaking of which, today starts a new 5/3/1 cycle for me, and I have to decide what I'll do for assistance in the new cycle. No, I won't get the whole forum read today.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:50 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
[ Really, just pick a nice complement of assistance exercises to do for a few weeks, then change out a few of them. I think you'll do better that way.
.


Why ?

*********************************

and now, I'd like to flip this on Bobby,
So Bob, I have a crazy insane program that has way too many different exercises. Alright. Lets compare?

Your 10/31 thru 11/4 days

10/31/2011
bench
dumbell bench
cable flyes
Reverse Grip Unilateral Tricep Pushdown
Barbell Rollouts

11/1/2011
chins
inverted rows
lat blast
face pulls
Cable Preacher Curl Drop Set Insania
Cable Rear Delt Fly

11/2/2011
DBSS
hip thrusts
GHR
TKE
BB Rollout

11/4/2011
dumbbell rows
face pulls
Y Raises
hammer curls
rear delt flies
rollouts

A 4 day for me would be

Saturday….
Press - Main….5 / 5 / 3 / 3
Hang High Pull….5 x 3
Assist Chin Up….2 x 4 / 1 x AMAP
Bench Press - Lite….4 x 10
Inverted Row….2 x 6 / 1 x 6 / 1 x 4
EZ Skull Crusher….3 x 9
….
Sunday….
Deadlift - Main….3 / 3 / 3
Plank….3 x 30 sec
Good Morning….3 x 5
Back Squat - Lite….5 x 8
BB Shrug….5 x 5
BB Step Up….2 x 12 each
….
Tuesday….
Front Squat….3 x 5
Pallof Press….3 x 15 sec
Bench Press….5 / 5 / 3
Assist Pull Up….2 x 4 / 1 x AMAP
Glute Thrust w/ BB….3 x 8
Push Up, Elevated Feet….3 x 5
Lateral Raise w/ Db….10 / 7 / 7 / 20
….
Thursday….
Back Squat….5 / 5 / 3
Db Decline Press (Neutral)….3 x 12
Db Row….3 / 5 / 5
Good Morning….3 x 5
Db Curl….3 x 9
Db Static Lunge….3 x 8
Plank….3 x 30 sec

You have 18 different exercises, I have 22 (I do Deadbug 1 off day/wk, and Sutcase carries after work 1 day)
You do 6 exercises 2 days and 5 exercises 2 days
I do 7 exercises 2 days and 6 exercises 2 days

Are you really in position to say I'm doing an insane amount variety and will suffer progress because of it? We're not tht far apart. Granted, this is a bit of an increae in varity/volume, but not much for me.

:cheese:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:54 pm 
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You only need to put certain exercises on the back burner if you're learning something new. Otherwise I don't see the need to put them on the "back burner" - you either have them in or you don't.

You training routine looks like insane overkill. Mostly because one I don't know how you can complete one session and two I don't get how you can possibly progress.

Lets forget exercises and only think movements.

Workout 1
1. Deadlifts - Do 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps - We will get into SDT Progression later (I'll provide a link)
2. Squat Variation - Choose between Front Squats and Back Squats and throw that in here - Work up to a relative 1,2,3 or 4 or 5RM (there is no steady rule in this) and then do some singles or doubles with 90%+ of that Rep max you have set
3. PC Exercise - Choose between Dumbbell Swings and Supine Glute Ham Raises for 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps

Workout 2
1. Horizontal Press - Do 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps. SDT progression.
2. Horizontal Pull - Choose between Barbell Rows and Dumbbell Rows for 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps. Same SDT type progression.
3. Horizontal Pull - Choose between Dumbbell Rows and Barbell Rows and Cable Rows for 3-5 sets of 8-12 reps. Same SDT type progression.
4. Shoulder Prehab Exercise - Facepull or Overhead Shrugs for 2 sets of 15-20 reps
5. Optional: throw in some arm work here if you can't control yourself

Workout 3
1. Squat Variation - Whichever is your favorite Squat Variation: throw that in here and do 5-7 sets of 3-5 reps. Same SDT Progression.
2. PC Exercise - Choose between Romanian Deadlifts and Cable Pullthroughs for 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps
3. PC Exercise - Choose between Dumbbell Swings and Supine Glute Ham Raises for 3-4 stets of 8-12 reps (don't repeat what you did in Workout 1)
4. Conditioning Drill - this is optional and I would only throw it in every so often to keep things fresh

Workout 4
1. Vertical Pull - I suggest Weighted Pull-ups or something along those lines for 5-7 sets of 2+ reps (as in you can have the last set be a 20 repper if you like)
2. Vertical Push - Choose between Military Press and Unilateral Overhead Press for 2-5 sets of 2-5 reps. Progress via SDT.
3. Horizontal Push - Choose a Bench Press variation and do 2-3 sets of 8+ reps
4. Horizontal Pull - Machine Rows or Cable Rows for 3-4 sets of 8+ reps

This is pretty much it.

SDT Links:

http://www.gustrength.com/training:sing ... rogression

http://www.gustrength.com/anuj-training ... rogression


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:31 am 
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OK, you don't do that much more than some people. When you break it down it doesn't sound as bad as it looks all listed together. And I count 23, by the way, not 22, but anyway. I think Bob's program is a bit on the busy side, to, only not quite as busy as yours. You almost have me convinced. Not quite.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:33 am 
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Wolf,

great an Upper/Lower split
What makes it better?

I'm getiting personal preferences, hypocrisy, and alternative programs, but no whys.

Why can't you figure out how I can progress on Back Squats, just because I also do Front Squats? Or how I can progress on Bench Press, if I also do Incline Push Ups?

Why, and believe me I see this everywhere, why are so many people in Weight Lifting forums so quick to dismiss any program not developed by them, or someone they respect. It's not rocket science.
My fault for asking a general question about a hybrid and getting into too much specifics.

I'll presume that if I just had les variety, there is nothing wrong with
Upper, Lower, Full, Full.

thanks for input!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:47 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
OK, you don't do that much more than some people. When you break it down it doesn't sound as bad as it looks all listed together. And I count 23, by the way, not 22, but anyway. I think Bob's program is a bit on the busy side, to, only not quite as busy as yours. You almost have me convinced. Not quite.


Yeah, at first I did not want to say "here is my program." That's too cliche. I wanted to ascertain input on the concept. And, then I was asked about goals and what exercises I did. Of course, before any questions I was told to just do 5/3/1.
Maybe I will end up trimming a bit. Heck, I need to do something long enough to learn about it. Maybe some of he accessory/assistance fall by the wayside.
Just disappointing to not get any real input, aside from lacking rear delt work.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:00 am 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
And, then I was asked about goals and what exercises I did................Just disappointing to not get any real input.


I'm not quite sure what you are after here Oscar. I explained to you what i do, i pick a coupe of goals and structure my workout accordingly. At the moment i want to break my deadlift and bench 1RM's by the New Year (or thereabouts) so my program is geared towards those aims. I suggested you maybe do the same towards whatever your goals are. You said no. I can't offer anymore than that, that is how i structure my program.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:06 am 
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I actually quite like this thread. It makes you think.

Oscar you actually remind me of myself in this thread lol. Although I'm not sure I should admit that :scratch:

When I first started training, I had this old BB and DB set, which came with a big poster with pictures of all the exercises you could do with said BB's and DB's. Some how, I didn't take this as all the things you CAN do, I took it as all the things you MUST do. So, my program took me about 2 and a half hours, it covered everything in detail apart from maybe my toes, and it crippled me for about 2 weeks every time I tried it. I could barely walk and couldn't even straighten my arms, never mind lift them over my head. Needless to say I didn't stick to it. Although I did learn a valuable lesson - More isn't always better. Although sometimes it is. Oh, and not to take things too literally.

Anyway, i'm also a little lost when looking for what you want from this thread. One thing that jumped out at me was your goals. They're great. However, they're general, non specific goals. I think you would benefit in drilling down some more specific goals, and creating your program around this.

You say "over all strength". I say - Strength in what? Squat, Bench, DL, Press, pull ups?? If so, how much? What are you doing now, and what do you want to be doing. I would start here. All the other things can be littered around it. We all want to be healthy and pain free, a good balanced program with certain factors included will do this but, consider this after you have the main goals drilled down.

Also, out of curiosity, how long do these sessions take you?

I'm not going to say you're doing too much because I don't know enough details and don't know what you're trying to achieve. You could do 10 exercises in 30 minutes with a light enough weight and short enough rest. If your goal was improving conditioning this could be ideal and fun due to all the variety. If it was getting a bigger squat then I would question it. I'd say just squat, and squat heavy, and add 2-3 assistance exercises, and this should take about 60 mins!

I think you may enjoy how Eric Cressey writes his programs. There's a lot more variety. A lot more "athleticism" (due largely to the variety). I prefer this myself to the likes of 5-3-1. As an example of what I mean, in his Show and Go program, you may do one main heavy squat in the low rep range, then a DL for speed, then 2 assistance, depending on the day, phase, whatever. Quite often it's just one heavy lift then a few assistance. The thing is, the heavy lift takes about 30 mins, and afterwards you feel like you've been hit by a truck. The thought of doing even 1 assistance exercise is daunting, never mind 7. Point is, you need to be productive with whatever you put in the program, and everything should have a purpose, as opposed to just "throwing a bunch of sh*t in the wall and hoping it'll stick".

I think you may also benefit in thinking outside of "your" box, just to get a fresh perspective. One example would be to look at Matt Z's log, and ask yourself what he's "missing". You're talking 3 exercises a session, sometimes 2, but he doesn't actually neglect anything. I'm not saying you should do what Matt does but, it's just good to go to the opposite end of the spectrum every now and again.

Basically, you're asking "why NOT", and we're asking, "WHY???".

KPj

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:44 am 
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I don't think it's a horrible approach but I don't think it should be a long term program, maybe a month or so would give you a break from the routine. There's more to health and fitness than just getting stronger, although gettiing stronger is probably where most of the effort should be placed. There may be benifits to this broad based approach but it still needs to be focused to the effect you're trying to achieve. If you're trying to build work capacity, adding in some GPP type stuff with heavy volume emphasing the concerntrics is a good idea. I don't see much of that in your program. If you're trying to minimize injuries, some exercises aimed at typical problem areas, along with mobility and stability work would be helpful. I see some of that. If you look at Peter Dellorto's program you see he includes much more variety even than you have, but it's focussed to achieve his goal of being a better fighter. If you follow Movnat or Crossfit principles there is a large random component that prepares you for encountering unexpected situations. It goes back to Kenny's question, Why do you want to do this?

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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