ExRx.net

ya but when you think about it, I am a bodybuilder. My number one focus is how good I look nekkid, and so I train accordingly, doing 3-5 sets of 3-5 exercises per muscle group. That's bodybuilding 101. Although I may sub in different exercises depending on how I feel on the day (more shoulder health stuff if shoulders are complaining, less tricep stuff if elbows are complaining) I am hammering the same basic moves week in week out, on a weekly rotation (Bench, Chins, Rows, DBSS, Hip Thrusts and GHRs being the bread and butter). I also do a lot of supersets and drop sets and other intensifiers that non-bodybuilders don't need.

Your crazy training routine has about a million redundant exercises, and you would be much better condensing it down into something that suits your goals, and to add to that, you would benefit from defining your goals more clearly.

It seems to me like you've asked for opinions on your routine, and the response has unanimously been to change it, and your response to that has been "I'm doing it anyway," so why ask?

I love you Ozzy, but this discussion's going nowhere

Oscar, there is an inherent problem with asking for help, because you will get:

1) good advice on the actual question you asked
2) bad advice on the actual question you asked
3) good advice on what an astute reader will realize you should have asked
4) bad advice on what a less-than-astute reader thinks you should have asked

Then you have to sort it out, in public. At least here at exrx.net you can safely assume good intentions for all responders, so you don't have to sort out the jerks (there are none), and I think you'll get more good than bad advice, but we're all still human here, so the four categories are all going to be present, sometimes in the same post!

Making matters worse, most people are followers on most things. This is not a bad thing, I may be a leader in my area of expertise, but when it comes to basically everything else in life I'm a follower. We all are. So there is an inherent bias against self-programming built directly into the human race. Again, it is less so here at exrx.net, but it is always there. This means it is inherently difficult to get advice on a self-programmed situation because there are so many variables in play between you and any other poster.

There are many explicit questions and suggestions in this and your other thread. Some are contradictory, but not all (probably not most). For instance, can you absolutely connect the dots between your goals and your program? If not, then ignore everything else until you can nail that down. For what it's worth, here's my chain of reasoning:

1) Broadest goal, general health
2) Since "any exercise is better than no exercise", I choose free weights because I like them
3) Between BB, Power lifting and Olympics, I can cross of BB, and choose Power lifting because it's easier to learn and does not require bumper plates and a platform in my basement.
4) To keep it interesting, I pretend I'm competitive and set my specific goal as an increasing combined total of bench + squat + deadlift.
5) Based on general advice about balancing push/pull etc I know I also want rows, chins, etc.
6) Finally, at my level of progress, 5/3/1 lets me combine wisdom from multiple sources to meet my day-to-day "keep it fun" goal of advancing the main lifts without suffering injury through imbalance. Main lifts plus the right accessories.

So, in six steps, I can connect the dots from my most general goal to the specific lifts I do on any day. Of course your own goals are your own, but can you convincingly connect the dots from overall goals to specific lifts? I think some people are questioning that.

_________________
The Angels have the phone box.

Oscar,

I get all the frustration you are putting out over this. From what I can see you are trying to increase "general overall" strength and mobility. Trying to build a platform that will support your desired activities as you get older.

Your eclectic work-out seems to be trying to cover all your bases, using different angles and variations on the basic lifts.

I think the biggest argument against what you have proposed is that you are lacking focus (this is something I have seen come up in this thread over and over). What this means isnt that you wont get strong or healthy doing this routine, but that by spreading your efforts in so many different areas you will do so more slowly and inefficiently than if you went with something more focused. You will end up at the same (or similar) spot at the end, but it will take you longer to get there. Why?

Because focus on a just a few movements will reap more significant results in the short run. There are a number of articles about this, I'm not going to dig them up here. The "big 5"; squat, deadlift, bench, row, OH Press are really all you need. The other lifts are called "accessory" for a reason. They accentuate and fill in the cracks that the big 5 dont focus on. If you do the big 5 you will be stronger, have healthier mobility, and increased work capacity (which I think is what you want).

This is why Starting Strength works. You dont need to change the lifts when you outgrow SS, you just need to change the periodization. Adding accessory lifts helps relieve tedium, but dilutes the effort that go into the big 5. The goal is to balance the trade off. Sure, some use accessories to address "weak spots", but in reality you have to get VERY strong for those to even show up. And even then, you only need to address them if you want to lift competitive weights (Note: NONE of this discussion applies to body building, which is a completely different beast).

The real questions to ask arent "what are your goals?" or "is this the most efficient use of your time?", they are "can you/will you stick with the program long enough for it to show progress?", "are you allowing sufficient time for recovery?", and "will it produce muscle imbalances that can lead to injury?". The first question is only answerable by yourself, the second two become much more difficult to answer when focus is diffused.

I've been doing this for 20+ years, and my current goals are pretty much the same as yours. Stay healthy. Stay strong. My periodization is probably unique to me, but I pretty much use Starting Strength lifts with just a few accessories (and usually do accessories on a different day than the main lift).

My advice? Keep it simple. As simple as possible. Fiddle with periodization rather than lifts. Give it time. Address specific weaknesses with main lifts (weak traps? hold the lockout on your DL 15 seconds, dont add shrugs).

I went through the same phase at one point, trying to address everything. I pretty much stalled and plateued on everything. I didnt lose 6 months, but I could have been making progress.

Okay so I understand what you're saying and let me tell you this: there is absolutely nothing wrong with an Upper Lower Full Full type layout.

Lets take my training template here:

Saturday = Deadlifts, Deadlift Variation and Pistol Squats

Sunday = Weighted Pull-ups, Suitcase Deadlifts and Facepulls

Tuesday = Front Squats, Cable Pullthroughs and Cable Rows

Wednesday = Overhead Press, Dumbbell Rows and CGBP

What I have (if you were to look at this like a bodybuilder):
Saturday = Lower
Sunday = Full
Tuesday = Full
Wednesday = Upper

There is nothing wrong with having a weird layout.

But there has to be a reason behind everything. And because this is about YOU, it has to be about your goals. So yes, you can take a sledge hammer and knock a nail into the wall or you can use a plain old hammer.

All this depends on your goals. If you want to get strong then train to get strong. If you want to look good then train accordingly. All this trying to ride 2 horses at the same time is nuts.

I can help you design a template but for that you need to be sure about what it is that you want.

You don't need to do the Big 5. You don't need to Squat, you don't need to Deadlift. This is about which exercises you think are important - whether it is 5 or 55 it is about YOU.

Yes, you can have 55 important lifts but then some are going to be more important than others...so you end up prioritizing, etc.



Starting Strength is a pile of horseshit.

Any - and by any I mean ANY routine that focuses on just a few lifts for the sake of having a few lifts, which relies on just one type of progression and is rigid and set in stone and has such a callus attitude towards injuries and muscle imbalance (from a strength perspective) is a pile of horseshit. Training has to evolve as per the trainee. No routine is a good routine. It is all about having a template which is essentially a guidebook for you to tweak.

This is very true and I think this is a fantastic post.

To anyone
don't turn this thread into a debate on SS or SL or 531 or any other specific program you like
none of you will convince me that you know more than the collective supporters of those programs, enough to waste time here. I understand they are not perfect programs for me, or most people.
I have huge respect for the BAR time many of you have, along with working with great trainers, no doubt. So, back on me before this gets diverted.


Many of you have put much thought into your post. So, I will do the same on the next one to address much of this.

I had a huge post I was going to put here, but while I was writing it Oscar made the above post... so I deleted it.

I think he's rapidly in danger of losing the his hard won "Troll" designation.

Oscar do what you want to do. Do it well to the best of your ability.

Track your progress and if you start growing stagnant change it up.

Your a monster continue to own the weights like you do.


What I got from all of this is that you dont have any SPECIFIC goals like bench pressing 225 said amount of times or dropping a certain amount of body fat % while getting stronger and more nimble.

Do what you have to man. Seriously just know your body adapts and eventually we plateau. Get around that by changing it up and when that time comes ask you know we are all here and aren't afraid to throw around suggestions like measly 75 lb dbells!! hahaha

_________________
"Opportunity does not knock, it presents itself when you beat down the door"

Kyle Chandler

real long.



I didn’t say “no”; I asked for clarification or reasons why I would progress less overall by doing more different exercises. It’s a bit of a cliché that you cant chase two goals; but sometimes those goals are not opposing. If the goals were” get big and lose fat”, well, maybe we’d have a problem. But “increase 5 RM across several lifts” is not conflicting. Sure, if I said, “Max my Bench”, then we can criticize the excessive additional pressing, or lack of more tricep work or whatever benchers need. And no I did not say my goal was “increase 5 RM on several major lifts” but seems it was well implied, essentially.



Yes, I realize you are BB’ing and my point was off base; but your hyperbole is frustrating me. My program is not that crazy and redundant. Recall a discussion we had where you stated that doing two similar movements was silly, just do .. yeah it was a 10x10 thread where someone was doing 5x10 + 5x10, two different exercises. You finished by saying you prefer to stick with one and that you had a bias against the other exercise. I asked what’s wrong with doing two similar movements at ½ the volume, I don’t think anyone said there was. I’m not trusting that some of you names RobertScott are always objective. I don’t think my overall volume is crazy and I will adjust that as needed.



While I can’t argue with what “seems” to you, I know that I am taking what you all say seriously. I just don’t accept anything everything out of hand. Our realtor quit because I asked too many questions and told her we did not like our kitchen referred to as “updated”. I’m simply asking for more than hearsay or preferences. I could post SL no here if it were unknown an 95% would say “change it”. It’s what happens, see Ken’s post.



I bet you are an excellent father


Great template. What about my exercises, and the one week I posted (the other week is very similar, with just a switch on volume/intensity from Dead to BackSquat, and Bench to Press) contradicts the goals to
“Over all strength, especially to perform life activities, for many years to come – I was starting to feel way too old for my age
Stress Management – more effective than playing online poker all night, and cheaper than drinking
Posture and Appearance and Pain avoidance – I’d like to sit up straight and move without pain for years to come
Power and Force. I’m more interested in making sure I can move heavy stuff fast, as I get older and feel that slipping.
To avoid other less enjoyable activities, like studying for Actuarial Exams”

Sure, I could narrow down how/where I want to get stronger; but that’s not my goal. There is no where I don’t want to get stronger at this point. No one is saying I have too many movements, just that I have redundancy. Who cares if its redundant, as long as my body responds and I am progressing/adding weight reps



I imagine you are correct here. Which gives me another opportunity to make this point: I am doing the PushUps as a break from more heavy shoulder work, and as a support to anti-flexion core work. My goal is not to Bench Press as much as possible as soon as possible. I Bench 3x in 2 weeks, and to me the PushUps, is partially assistance and partially training effect Believe me, if I could do 100 elevated PushUps is 5 sets, I would not have them on here. Similar logic can be applied to why I do Front Squats, InvertedRows, GoodMornings, GluteThrusts, and Assisted ChinUps.



I am not seeing the similarity. Fwiw, when I first got my gym set up, I was doing 2-3 movements per workout. It changes often, usually, 5. Usually 3 large lifts, 1 core and 1 accessory. I’ve never done more than 6 -7 on one day. The fact you are leading off w2ith this analogy, and you are one of the best here, makes me wonder why there is so much misrepresentation of my program.




I stated it in my OP.
“Any pitfalls for this sort of routine in general?”
While I understand my specific goals would help all our experts to build a better program for me, I was thinking some general thoughts of this program might emerge. I’ve had this problem before where I ask a general question – ok, you may say there is nothing general, it’s all goal specific – then that's part of my frustration. I’m pretty sure in my condition that one could give some general thoughts on this program. I think there were some good questions early on, like “what Are Your Goals” and “What Exercises Are You Doing” – but then I felt it was a set up, to give rationale to diss the lack of specific goals and/or the insane number of exercises. I was not looking for approval or disproval of my exercise choices, or a critique of how well I stated my goals, but of general thoughts on this structure. Like “I find doing Lower first makes more sense” Or “Why do you think this is better than 3 Full Days/ week, oscar”
I was told to just do 5/3/1 then I listed why I am considering something else (which gives a frequency between 5/3/1 and SS) Not much was asked about that or referenced because I soon listed the crazy list of 300 exercises I do all in one day.. Ken mentioned the all out sets as if that extra volume covers the frequency gap, I think.
What is I had said my exercises are
“Squat, Dead, Db Row, Assisted Pull Ups, DB Decline, and OH Press, with some core, and medial delt work” – Could we then move on to discussing the protocol. The tangents caused by the excessive exercises AND the lack of anyone being able to convince/provide either an understanding that my goals was not to increase any one lift more than others, or explain why doing both Front and Back Squatting was wasting time, causes a stalemate of sorts.




This new set up, about 90 minutes. I tend to watch football in between, or Jimmy Fallon.
Typical for me. I do not work fast and some things like Glute Thrusts have long set ups. The routines are not that crazy or volume/intensity heavy


I think he has a great balanced program that certainly looks to be geared for strength and is working well


I’m not sure everyone is saying “Why???” to the Upper/Lower/Full/Full as much as they are the list of exercises. I’d like more discussion on the former; and more “proof” that doing two similar movements is less productive, for a general goal like mine.




Jumping and running right now are bothering my ankle, that aside, I could list as a goal to do HIIT Burpees at some number for 8 cycles as a high specific goals related to conditioning. Right now, I’m not doing much towards that – except actively reducing rest between sets. My strength right now is getting more attention. In particular as it went down after the strict October Diet. I know that a large part of my work is getting the diet honed so that I can get stronger and lose fat. I also realize that too much volume makes this harder. So, that potential conflict may lead to stripping some of the excess. I could also see going to a Upper/Lower/Full/Conditioning day, where we do prehab, and complexes on conditioning day. It would lead to having even more movements in the program. Or take a movement out on both Full days, and add a two movement SS finisher But alas, that is getting beyond this topic.


Yes.


I’d settle for one good one. One that shows I’d be better at two different similar movements after say 6 months if I did one for 3 months and another for 3 months, rather than both at ½ the volume for all 6 months.


My 9 months of experience has centered around all of these. I never ever ever was one who did much isolation. I do however, now like to do some lateral delt work, and have found benefit (if not looks) to motivate for some are work.


Great thoughts. I would say my program is balanced. I am doing my 100th session tonight, so I have some confidence I’ll stick to something. I do change a lot but am committing to stick to whatever I settle on – and this is likely it, baring any tweaking after this discussion thread. With regards to recovery, as I noted earlier, dietary challenges to support this may be the downfall – but imo that is more discipline than actual problems with the program.


You had me at hello. I understand you are an ox.


Honestly, this is more about fiddling with periodization. I’ve always done the same 6 main lifts in here. The only newer lifts as Inverted Rows (as I’m having trouble making any progress in Assisted Pull Ups with my resistance band, and these are scalable), high pulls because I feel ready now to add a power movement, and Shrugs because my weak traps make Romanian Deadlifts an upper back exercise. What the protocol was most trying to address is the frequency of doing Heavy vs. lighter/Volume days as I get away from linear progression on most lifts. Unfortunately, we never got much into that part of the program


I will be very cognizant of this unfocused program leading to early topping.


Thank you for at least addressing the protocol



How is what I am doing not going to help me get stronger and look better, presuming I support it with diet? Why is your program better? By the way, I like your program. I have no reason to believe it would not be just as good, maybe better, sure. I’m also pretty sure the next guy could give me their best shot at a program. I guess many of you think I was asking “what is the best program to fit these goals I’m about to list” It wasn’t.
If it would help to think of it as “For what goals could a well designed Upper/Lower/Full/Full support, then use that. I’m pretty sure that template can work for a wide variety of goals.
Also, I would not bother you all with “Please design me a program” This was less about me (supposed to be) and more about any general thoughts on a U/L/F/F split.


I’ll be honest, I did not expect you to come in with such earthbound advice. And I’m not just saying that because you did not diss my list of exercises. You understood I have not specific lifting goals and allow for the fact I may be wise enough to track progress and tweak as needed. Although you gave me nothing specific to address the program design, I appreciate the sentiment.



Man I’m tired, you all are too I bet.
I was going to use this last section to summarize something.

You ever get a in group of people who all hate “the President” and then after a few ideas start comn ig out, you realize “Wait, I don’t agree with any of you all”. So I’m hoping this does not get to fragmented

Do I have too many movements? (I dont mean exercises) As I see it, I have -
Compounds: Knee, Hip, HorizPull, Horz Push, Vert Pull, Vert Push
Accesory: Bicep, Tricep, Lat Delt, Traps
Power: High Pull

If that is fine, then I’m left with stil not understading why doing Inverted rows and Db Rows is not as beneficial for me, as just Db Rows, etc


I hopefully already covered it. If your name wasn’t called it doesn’t mean I don’t like you. It may mean that.

Please read what’s under others names in case it was addressed there.

Thank you
I’m still listening.

Oscar, FWIW, as to the Upper, lower, full thing, many PL clubs use this protocol. Not exactly as you have put yours out, but the premise is the same. As to many different varying exercises (BTW, yours aren't that much), I actually like the idea and do that myself. I've been following alot of Coach Javorek's setups, and did a 12 week General Fitness #2 program of his. #x wk, 12 weeks, and no two sessions were the same. Lots of different stuff thrown in,; leg lunges, lunge walking, lots of various different upperback/shoulder girdle exercises. The only thing was, there was a method to the supposed randomness, and thats while the exercises varies, the movement areas were all kept covered. Not only that, Bob Hoffman, York Barbell Club, the father of American Weightlifting (Olympic style) trained his people (many bodybuilders included) with the idea of the 1001 different exercises. And you know me anyway, I think out of the box most of the time anyway. Just my .02
Tim

Well, I, for one, was overwhelmed by the list, and I reacted to that. When you boil it down, it's not so bad. Certainly there's nothing wrong that I can think of with an upper/lower/fb/fb set-up. You're staying focused on the big compound movements. Having more than one exercise per movement isn't necessarily bad, and I'm assuming that you aren't doing you aren't doing all of them in the same workout. So maybe, just maayyyybeee, you're right.

If you quote me, I'll deny I said that.

_________________
Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan

TimD,

your support means a lot.

I imagine you and others are hesitant to endore my eclectic program because, well frankly, I have no credentials and little bar time. So anything that allows me to be odd but directs it to fit my goals better would be appreciated more than just a general - "you do too much"

I have one criticism and that would be the lack of more conditioning oriented / weight loss stuff. I see a prety easy tweak to take the Thurs trio of Elevated Push Ups, Delt Row, and Front Squat (or Static Lunge), and Curls, and mega set them and boom, I have added conditioning/cardio and reduced time. I actually was intending to put "complexes" together on these Full days to hit the acceossry/assistance and cardio more efficiently, but then, sort of forgot

If you knew the time I spend thinking thru these it might sadden or frighten you.
And to some extent that explains my reaction to some early quick dismisals. I didn't just flippidly throw every exrcise I ever heard of together. I had reason for each. Right or wrong, I thought about it.

At least your admitting your admiration of a pretty kick butt layout.

RobertScott got me all upset in part because his stong endorsment of a Upper/Lower 4 day/wk layout is what I started this "Program to End All Programs At Least For the Next Few Months Or When Ever I Develop the Next Program to End All Programs" with. Then, I thought, I needed more Frequency at my stage.

Oscar, I wasn't hesitant at all. In fact, I did reply once earlier, but realized I put it in the wrong thread, so went back and took it out. I've been around the block for many years, been there, done that, and for your goals of dumping the fat, getting conditioned, I think your idea of the varied movements combined with a focus group of compounds is a good idea, with the varied movements kept in a quick paced type of thing. I also am NOT a big believer that going with SL or SS only is a good way to get conditioned or lose fat. You have have to have a quicker, more moderate paced routine with it, and the accessories work in that respect quite well. I do think you may try to overthink things, but anyway, give it a shot, then judge it.
Tim