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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:15 pm 
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So I'm halfway through week 3, cycle 3 of 5/3/1, and I think the next think to focus on is deadlift.

Long story short, I think the accessories I have are good for press, bench, and squat, but that I could put something in for deadlift. My specific weakness is breaking off the floor with legs, at higher intensity and later reps I have to fight the tendency to shift into a stiff-leg deadlift.

I've been hanging out here long enough to know what people will suggest (I think, mostly), but am wondering which accessory to pick as the first. Here is what I know so far:

Hip Thrusts: I can do these up to about 40% of my squat training number. If these are a good exercise, I'd have to bang together some 2x4's to make a station, but I'm willing to do so if these are a recommendation for my specific issue.

Glute-Ham Raises: Tried doing these, the result was, ahem, humbling. Even practically throwing myself up off the floor to 45 degrees I would immediately drop back down. Seems to me if I can't get at least half ROM these might not be the best place to start.

Good Mornings: I see these recommended all the time here. Rippetoe says not to do them until you can squat 300, though I don't know why he says that. Is this a safe starting point?

Pause Deficit Deads: Is there such a thing? Figure a 4" platform, raise up 4" to get to the starting point for a regular deadlift, and hang there, then complete rep?

So my question is, does it really matter which one to start with?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:25 pm 
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Here's an article by Bret Contreras in which he asks a range of strength professionals their top assistance exercises for the 'big three'.

http://www.wannabebig.com/training/the- ... -deadlift/

What is noticeable is the differing opinions from all of them.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:30 pm 
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Well, you said your major deficit is breaking off the floor, so I agree with what I read from Proper Knob's link, being from Thibideau. "Because of my structure, the start of the movement is the most problematic for me, so deadlifts from a deficit (standing on a podium) and snatch-grip deadlifts are my go-to-exercises. I also found that increasing my front squat really helped my deadlift."
Tim


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:19 pm 
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I like and do goodmornings. I also think that the DL from a deficit is a good idea, but I'd suggest a 1-2" deficit, not 4.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Depending on your angles, I think the Quads have a more signiifcant role early in the Deadlift. The Hips take over later.
Especially, if you know you are letying your back and hips take over, I'd focus on knee dominant assistance.

Maybe High Bar, Olympic style squatting

maybe?

Of course this advice is in a vacuum without regard to the entire program and how adding this would play.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:47 pm 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
Depending on your angles, I think the Quads have a more signiifcant role early in the Deadlift. The Hips take over later..


Actually, it's the other way around - the deadlift movement is initiated by the posterior chain, especially the hamstrings. That's the reason why snatch grip deadlifts and/or deadlifts from a deficit work so well as accessory exercises for standard deadlifts - they make the posterior chain work harder. From personal experience, doing snatch grip deadlifts from a box - in tandem with speed pulls and Romanian deadlifts - allowed me to blow past a deadlift plateau that plagued me for more than a year back in the day.

The other posters have given Ken a lot of good information, so I'll just add my two cents (actually, my trainer back in the day's two cents): to rip the damn bar off the floor, you have to (1) strengthen your posterior chain and (2) improve your pulling power at the start. Hip extension exercises like Romanian/stiff-legged deadlifts, good mornings ect meet the first point. Pulling from a deficit and/or with a snatch grip - or doing speed pulls (fast deadlifts with 40-50% of your work set weight) meets the second.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:18 pm 
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If you are breaking off the floor and going into a stiff leg motion to get the weight up, it isn't a floor issue in and of itself, IMO.

You should be working on more Posterior Chain work. In truth, it's a hip and quad issue and yes, Deficit Deadlifts might do the trick.

I think you should do Deficit Deadlifts for 2-4 sets of 3-5 reps and follow that with some Bulgarian Split Squats for 2-3 sets of 5-7 reps and perhaps in this workout or sometime in the week: Cable Pullthroughs (the Pornstar Maker) for 4-5 sets of 10-15 reps.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:32 pm 
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_Wolf_ wrote:
If you are breaking off the floor and going into a stiff leg motion to get the weight up, it isn't a floor issue in and of itself, IMO..


Good point.

I'm wondering if he's leaning forward and pushing with his toes instead of his laying back and pushing with his heels.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:46 pm 
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Stephen Johnson wrote:
_Wolf_ wrote:
If you are breaking off the floor and going into a stiff leg motion to get the weight up, it isn't a floor issue in and of itself, IMO..


Good point.

I'm wondering if he's leaning forward and pushing with his toes instead of his laying back and pushing with his heels.


You don't have to hop from one extreme to the other - you can have the weight resting on the middle of your feet as well.

If he's leaving forward I wonder if it is because of his shoes (sneakers, crosstrainers, etc can really do that to you). But because he's doing 5/3/1 I doubt this is the case..

A video would do really well actually - to see what is happening.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:08 am 
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Stephen Johnson wrote:
Oscar_Actuary wrote:
Depending on your angles, I think the Quads have a more signiifcant role early in the Deadlift. The Hips take over later..


Actually, it's the other way around - the deadlift movement is initiated by the posterior chain, especially the hamstrings. .


First I appreciate you not ignoring my post.

Man, you are right, obv. I was mixing up something I read about rack pulls which said "keep shins perpendicular to floor, or you'll end up using your quads". I interpreted this to mean the Quads will/should come in to play early, as the shins are slightly forward in Deadlift set up. When in actuality, I'm thinking now, I've perverte this Rack Pull set up que and transferred that to taking on a bad habit of "Squatting the weight" off the floor.
That may be tough to follow but it helped me

glad Ken knows better than to listen to me


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:22 am 
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KenDowns wrote:
So I'm halfway through week 3, cycle 3 of 5/3/1, and I think the next think to focus on is deadlift.


Sumo or Conventional?

The muscle involvement is different with each. That means that some exercises are going to be more effective for one style rather than another.

So, which one do you use, Sumo or Conventional?

Deficit Deadlifts.

Tim provided you a good auxiliary movement, defincit deadlifts. This movement works well for both the sumo and conventional deadlift.


Quote:
Long story short, I think the accessories I have are good for press, bench, and squat, but that I could put something in for deadlift. My specific weakness is breaking off the floor with legs, at higher intensity and later reps I have to fight the tendency to shift into a stiff-leg deadlift.


Muscle Firing Sequence

The Sumo and Conventional Deadlift are two different movement. The muscle firing sequence is different with each. Thus, an auxiliary exercise that works for one style may not be effective for another.

Sumo Deadlift

The muscle firing sequences is Leg-Back. That means the legs initially generate more force in the first part of the movement.

Conventional Deadlift

The muscle firing sequence is Back-Legs-Back. The erectors and hamstrings initially break the weight off the floor.

The Right Auxiliary Exercise For The Right Method

Thus, the method you use determines the auxiliary exercises you use.

"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing." Einstine

The only way to find out which auxiliary exercise work best is to experiment, which you are doing.

Here is what I know so far:

Quote:
Hip Thrusts: I can do these up to about 40% of my squat training number. If these are a good exercise, I'd have to bang together some 2x4's to make a station, but I'm willing to do so if these are a recommendation for my specific issue.


Hip Thrust

The value of Hip Thrust is once the bar get to you knees. At that point, you need to drive your hips through.

Hip Thrust have little value in coming off the floor.


Quote:
Glute-Ham Raises: Tried doing these, the result was, ahem, humbling. Even practically throwing myself up off the floor to 45 degrees I would immediately drop back down. Seems to me if I can't get at least half ROM these might not be the best place to start.


Glute Ham Raise

I personally have never seen any benefits from this auxiliary exercise.

However, some of my lifting buddies swear by it.

If works for you use, it. If it doesn't, dump it.

Razor Curl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inK7ys8qzLM

I find this movement works for me. A friend say it does nothing for him.

So again, use what works.


Quote:
Good Mornings: I see these recommended all the time here. Rippetoe says not to do them until you can squat 300, though I don't know why he says that. Is this a safe starting point?


Good Mornings

This is my staple deadlift exercise for strength. I have NO idea why Mark would make that statement. Anyone can do them.

Quote:
Pause Deficit Deads: Is there such a thing? Figure a 4" platform, raise up 4" to get to the starting point for a regular deadlift, and hang there, then complete rep?


Deficit Deadlifts

These are an effective method of increasing your deadlift for both sumo and conventional deadlifters.

4" Platform

As a Conventional Deadlifter, I use to pull them off my shoe tops, a 4" platform.

It's a real bitch breaking the weight off the floor from 4" "down under".

My Deficit Deadlift was about 50 lbs/10% less than my regular deadlift.

2" Platform, Jungledoc

As Jungledoc stated, a 2" platform is a good place to start and perhaps stay.

Mike Tronski, a fellow Sumo Deadlifter, performs them off a 2" platform. Tronski's increased his deadlift with this method.

Also, the pulling off a 2" platform is a bit less tramatic on your lower back. So, try that first.


Quote:
So my question is, does it really matter which one to start with?


Effective Auxiliary Exercises

The most effective auxiliary exercises are those that are most like the movement you are trying to improve.

Tim, Deficit Deadlifts is a good starting point.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:56 am 
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_Wolf wrote:
If he's leaving forward I wonder if it is because of his shoes (sneakers, crosstrainers, etc can really do that to you). .


More likely that someone who leans forward is afraid of the bar turning his shins into hamburger

Kenny Croxdale wrote:

Effective Auxiliary Exercises

The most effective auxiliary exercises are those that are most like the movement you are trying to improve.

Tim, Deficit Deadlifts is a good starting point.


An informative post, as always. Thanks

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:53 am 
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Thanks everyone, lots of replies and information here!

There seems to be plenty of support for deficits, with Kenny and doc agreeing to go for a smaller increment than 4". So that is where I'll start in cycle 4 and see where it leads.

@kenny:

1) I'm doing conventional

2) thanks specifically for the info on muscle engagement through the lift.

@Wolf (and others) My tendency to raise hips and stiff-leg is not an overall form issue, so I'm not trying to fix anything. Rather, it begins slowly when I'm getting worn out, my spotter looks specifically for that because i still have a hard time noticing it, and he calls the set if I do it twice in a row or if it seems to be getting worse.

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