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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:04 pm 
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I've been sticking with the modifed SL 5x5 program for over three months now, somewhere along 13 weeks. It has stalled on almost every major lift. I think it's time to modify the program a bit again to suit me better. But not too much, I'm sure progress has happened, so I'm not fixing what isn't broken, just altering stuff. Since nobody replied on the question on my log on what would be the best program for me right now, I thought I'd figure one out.
The Stronglifts program says I should move to 3x5 after this, but there is something I don't like on that. I mean, it will help for a week or two, but doing the same stuff 10 reps less isn't just what I see best for me. I thought I would combine the 5x5 and 3x5, and change the weekly split alot. Doing 120kg squats three times a week with hard cardio/strength/core/other training on school is just too much for me. I keep one rest day a week, so I think I'm chaning the squatting amount.
Plus, I'm adding some assisting moves to the program, again also.

I'm still aiming for higher total reps, I think I'm still not strong enough for 5/3/1, and need to work my lifts a bit more before that. So, my program is relying for progress in sets, reps, and eventually weight. I planned on doing a weight (starting from 80 or 85% 1RM probably) for 3x5, when I can do that, I'll add another set, and do 4x5. I thought I would add one more set on the following week, but to make it a near-max rep -set. So it would be 4x5/1+. Not necessarily 5x5, but on the last set more or less than 5. After this workout, I will load 2.5kg more weight and start all over again.

Why I thought about doing this, is that I want to progress cleanly and surely, not like grinding poor form 3x5 and then move on just to fail on the first set. Doing progressing sets/reps on previous weight should make the next weigths 3x5 easier and lighter, and it could help the progress. Also, I still wanted something where is clear progress every workout, and didn't want to get out of the basic foundation of the StrongLifts. If we break it to numbers, it would look something like this:

Week 1: 3x5
Week 2: 4x5
Week 3: 4x5/1+
Week 4:3x5 (with 2.5kg more weight)
...

Here are the Workouts (A, B, C), I'm training 3 times a week.

Workout A:
Box Squat
Deadlift
Deadlift Assistance (Snatch-grip deadlift/deficit DL/Straight leg DL)
Abs

Workout B:
Back Squat
Overhead Press
Chin-up
Upright Row

Workout C:
Bench Press
Barbell Row
Dip
Abs

Of course the setscheme I've planned will happen on the main lifts (Box Squat, Back Squat, Deadlift, OH Press, Bench, Row). The assisting moves is still open, probably something like 4x5-10 or thereabouts. That's where I'd also like to hear your opinion. The DL assiting moves are low-rep for sure, and I think I will alter those three every workout.

Tell me, am I on the right tracks, should I drop this idea, or is there a seed of good in it? Am I too all-over the place with a semi-complicated program? Are the major lifts and assisting moves good? Please comment whatever pops into your mind, I need some feedback, there still are few things I'm not sure of.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:16 pm 
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Dub wrote:
Week 1: 3x5
Week 2: 4x5
Week 3: 4x5/1+
Week 4:3x5 (with 2.5kg more weight)

Tell me, am I on the right tracks, should I drop this idea, or is there a seed of good in it? Am I too all-over the place with a semi-complicated program? Are the major lifts and assisting moves good? Please comment whatever pops into your mind, I need some feedback, there still are few things I'm not sure of.


you been reading GUS "SDT" articles?


I'm not a big fan of changing protocols to some home brewed style :roll: but it works for some people
One thing, when adding "Sets" and "Reps" for that matter, you have to be cognisant of the rest/tempo, as I imagine that will impact your training effect, i.e. adding a set but increasing rest nullifies much of the progress, ya.

If you keep making progress and enjoying what you do, I'd say who am I to throw poo at it.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:41 am 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
One thing, when adding "Sets" and "Reps" for that matter, you have to be cognisant of the rest/tempo, as I imagine that will impact your training effect, i.e. adding a set but increasing rest nullifies much of the progress, ya.



What do you mean? You expect that if you move from a 200 DL to 300 your "rest" will be the same?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:45 am 
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Dub wrote:
I've been sticking with the modifed SL 5x5 program for over three months now, somewhere along 13 weeks. It has stalled on almost every major lift. I think it's time to modify the program a bit again to suit me better. But not too much, I'm sure progress has happened, so I'm not fixing what isn't broken, just altering stuff.

It's Broken

The fact that you lifts have stalled is a neon sign telling you that your program is broken.

That means you need to change something.


Quote:
The Stronglifts program says I should move to 3x5 after this, but there is something I don't like on that. I mean, it will help for a week or two, but doing the same stuff 10 reps less isn't just what I see best for me.


Guessing

You have don't have enough expereicne to know if doing "10 reps less" isn't going to work. That means you guessing. Guessing is never the best option.

Intensity The Key To Progress

One of the major keys to making progress is "Intensity" of your training program. The greater the intenstiy the greater the return (strength, size, power, speed, etc).

"You can train hard or long but not both." Gironda

That means that as the intensty goes up the volume goes down. Dropping down to a 3 X 5 program will allow you to increase your intentity.

Periodization Training

Changing your program to the 3 X 5 or some other program also allows your body to recovery and grow.


Quote:
I thought I would combine the 5x5 and 3x5, and change the weekly split alot. Doing 120kg squats three times a week with hard cardio/strength/core/other training on school is just too much for me. I keep one rest day a week, so I think I'm chaning the squatting amount.
Plus, I'm adding some assisting moves to the program, again also.


Change Is Good

Any change you make will be good. Just remember to initally drop you loads/percentages down low to allow you muscles/body to recover from your 13 week program.

Squats and Cardio

Performing squats three times a week with hard cardio is senseless.

Overtraining

What you want to do is stress muscles to grow. Working too much lead to over training. You stop making progress, as you have. And you eventually get weaker.

Recovery

Muscle growth takes place during rest. It is amazing how much you'll grow if you provide you body with rest.


Quote:
I'm still aiming for higher total reps,


Why?

Quote:
I think I'm still not strong enough for 5/3/1,


How stong to do you/does anyone need to be before you do a 5/3/1 program?

Quote:
Why I thought about doing this, is that I want to progress cleanly and surely, not like grinding poor form 3x5 and then move on just to fail on the first set.


Poor Form 5 X 5

What is the difference between "grinding poor form 3x5" to grinding poor form 5x5's out?

When To Stop

No matter what set/reps scheme you use, you need to STOP the movement once your technique deteriorates and the movement changes into some hybrid exercises.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:29 am 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Dub wrote:
I've been sticking with the modifed SL 5x5 program for over three months now, somewhere along 13 weeks. It has stalled on almost every major lift. I think it's time to modify the program a bit again to suit me better. But not too much, I'm sure progress has happened, so I'm not fixing what isn't broken, just altering stuff.

It's Broken

The fact that you lifts have stalled is a neon sign telling you that your program is broken.

That means you need to change something.


I agree with this sentiment.

Quote:
The Stronglifts program says I should move to 3x5 after this, but there is something I don't like on that. I mean, it will help for a week or two, but doing the same stuff 10 reps less isn't just what I see best for me.


Guessing

You have don't have enough expereicne to know if doing "10 reps less" isn't going to work. That means you guessing. Guessing is never the best option.

[color=#800000]Being able to gauge your body is critical however I do agree that the OP might not be at that stage yet.


Intensity The Key To Progress

One of the major keys to making progress is "Intensity" of your training program. The greater the intenstiy the greater the return (strength, size, power, speed, etc).

This is a very unqualified statement and as general as me saying "Exercising is good for you" which basically means nothing.

"You can train hard or long but not both." Gironda

That means that as the intensty goes up the volume goes down. Dropping down to a 3 X 5 program will allow you to increase your intentity.

Well, you ideally want to take your singles and make them into doubles and then take those doubles and make them into triples...the goal is to get stronger and volume is just one of the many parts of this. Dropping to 3x5 from 5x5 will allow an increase in intensity however is it sustainable?

Periodization Training

Changing your program to the 3 X 5 or some other program also allows your body to recovery and grow. [/color]

This is another blanket statement which really doesn't mean anything.

Quote:
I thought I would combine the 5x5 and 3x5, and change the weekly split alot. Doing 120kg squats three times a week with hard cardio/strength/core/other training on school is just too much for me. I keep one rest day a week, so I think I'm chaning the squatting amount.
Plus, I'm adding some assisting moves to the program, again also.


Change Is Good

Any change you make will be good. Just remember to initally drop you loads/percentages down low to allow you muscles/body to recover from your 13 week program.

Squats and Cardio

Performing squats three times a week with hard cardio is senseless.

[color=#800000]This I do agree with.


Overtraining

What you want to do is stress muscles to grow. Working too much lead to over training. You stop making progress, as you have. And you eventually get weaker.

That actually happens on a more long term basis. What happens immediately with a plan like 5x5 or one of these linear progression plans is that you over reach and then you don't know how to get back. To put it simply, with linear progression driven template think of it like this: you're running in a forest with a tiger chasing you. What happens after you cross the forest and the tiger is no longer chasing you? You fall down tired. But who put the tiger there? You. Who asked you to run? You.

Another drawback with these sorts of fancy programs is that you develop massive imbalances which hinder your progress.


Recovery

Muscle growth takes place during rest. It is amazing how much you'll grow if you provide you body with rest.[/color]

Quote:
I'm still aiming for higher total reps,


Why?

Quote:
I think I'm still not strong enough for 5/3/1,


How stong to do you/does anyone need to be before you do a 5/3/1 program?

Quote:
Why I thought about doing this, is that I want to progress cleanly and surely, not like grinding poor form 3x5 and then move on just to fail on the first set.


Poor Form 5 X 5

What is the difference between "grinding poor form 3x5" to grinding poor form 5x5's out?

When To Stop

No matter what set/reps scheme you use, you need to STOP the movement once your technique deteriorates and the movement changes into some hybrid exercises.

Kenny Croxdale


My comments in RED


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:34 am 
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First off I have to say your post was really good and informative, made me think about things over. That was something that I surely needed. Feedback is always very good to hear.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
You have don't have enough expereicne to know if doing "10 reps less" isn't going to work. That means you guessing. Guessing is never the best option...
I guess you're right.


Quote:
One of the major keys to making progress is "Intensity" of your training program. The greater the intenstiy the greater the return (strength, size, power, speed, etc)...
That means that as the intensty goes up the volume goes down. Dropping down to a 3 X 5 program will allow you to increase your intentity.
That's where the idea actually came from. I understand that when I do 3x5, I can go to heavier weights. But is it a bad move to use set progression for moving from Intense 3x5 towards more volume 4x5? One set does add a little to the mix, but when the rest is appropriate one can make the last set an intense bout also. One of my main points on doing this kind of progress is to make sure I'm better off to the heavier weight. When the same weight is used two or three times with increase in sets, it should make the loading and the next set more achievable. It could help on the fact that I would fail every other workout at best.

Quote:
Any change you make will be good. Just remember to initally drop you loads/percentages down low to allow you muscles/body to recover from your 13 week program.
Yeah, I'm planning on taking a deload week or two around christmas, and then officially launch the program. The deload weeks give a me chance to see what kind of program I've created and are the lifts well put.

Quote:
Why?
How stong to do you/does anyone need to be before you do a 5/3/1 program?

For the question why I use more reps than more intensity, one of the things I rely on is technique. I need to make sure that when the weight gets heavier and heavier (like 3RM for example), my technique is up to par. Okay, is adding an extra set helping me to master tehcnique? I think it helps yeah. I still believe that for a rookie like me it is better to do more reps than to move doing something like 5/3/1, where you are constantly pushing your 1RM's and 3RM's or thereabouts.

Another reason why I'm not moving to 5/3/1 is because I only know little about it. I need time to study the subject a bit, order Wendler's book and such. I will move on to it, not just yet.

Quote:
What is the difference between "grinding poor form 3x5" to grinding poor form 5x5's out?

There is no difference. But my point was that when I've done good form 3x5, 4x5 and maybe a fifth set with given weight, the next 3x5 will not be poor form grinding, but a better form and more correct ROM.

Quote:
No matter what set/reps scheme you use, you need to STOP the movement once your technique deteriorates and the movement changes into some hybrid exercises.
Funny for you to mention, because that happened today. The squat went very bad (fell forwards) on the 4th rep, so I decided to call it quits.

oscar wrote:
you been reading GUS "SDT" articles?

Well yeah, that was one source of inspiration for this program. But something similar was haunting the back of my mind before the articles also.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:51 am 
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There's a little bit too much overthinking going on. You're trying to incorporate advanced techniques into what should be a beginner/intermediate program. You need to start using heavier weights and a 3x5 will allow heavier weights than 5x5. Going to a program like 5-3-1 or one of the intermediate weekly progression programs could also work. Pick your pony and ride it.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:46 pm 
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_Wolf_ wrote:
Oscar_Actuary wrote:
One thing, when adding "Sets" and "Reps" for that matter, you have to be cognisant of the rest/tempo, as I imagine that will impact your training effect, i.e. adding a set but increasing rest nullifies much of the progress, ya.

What do you mean? You expect that if you move from a 200 DL to 300 your "rest" will be the same?


I read poorly so I won't blame you for doing the same.
"Sets" and "Reps" <> "Intensity/Weight"

I was suggesting if you go from 2x5 to 3x5, but rest more between those sets, that you have to consider that in your "progression". Some addtional rest when adding a set or reps could still be progression, but beyond a point, it's not. Nothing wrong with adding 5 minutes rest, and then working back to the rest times you used before, but you know, seems less like progression at first. It seemed like a common sense statement to me.

But if we want to talk about intenstity
I would presume rest would be more with a 100 lb heavier Deadlift for the same lifter, of course. However, I don't think your rest for 400 lb is necessarily more than my rest for 300 lbs. As I work up, I hope my rest doesnt increase always, but increeass for the weight jump and then comes back to "normal", trending slowly upward over longer intervals.

ps. I'm winging it here.

pps. Taking on KC, this could be good.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:00 pm 
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Dub wrote:
oscar wrote:
you been reading GUS "SDT" articles?

Well yeah, that was one source of inspiration for this program. But something similar was haunting the back of my mind before the articles also.


yeah, I think the SDT concept is so intuitive. It's a matter of being comfortable diverting from all the spoon fed set in stone progressions we beginners are told to do


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:37 pm 
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_Wolf_ wrote:
Being able to gauge your body is critical however I do agree that the OP might not be at that stage yet.


I guarantee the Dub is not at that stage yet.

Quote:
Intensity The Key To Progress

One of the major keys to making progress is "Intensity" of your training program. The greater the intenstiy the greater the return (strength, size, power, speed, etc).

This is a very unqualified statement and as general as me saying "Exercising is good for you" which basically means nothing.


Then let me define that a bit more for you. At some point in your cycle, you need to push it to your RM or close to it.

In a three week cycle, the RM needs to be in week three. In a four week cycle, you RM needs to be in week four, etc
.


Quote:
"You can train hard or long but not both." Gironda

That means that as the intensty goes up the volume goes down. Dropping down to a 3 X 5 program will allow you to increase your intentity.

Well, you ideally want to take your singles and make them into doubles and then take those doubles and make them into triples


That's one way.

Quote:
...the goal is to get stronger and volume is just one of the many parts of this. Dropping to 3x5 from 5x5 will allow an increase in intensity however is it sustainable?


High intensity is never sustainable.

Quote:
Periodization Training

Changing your program to the 3 X 5 or some other program also allows your body to recovery and grow.


This is another blanket statement which really doesn't mean anything.


Periodization Training has to is based on The General Adaptation Syndrome. Google either Periodization Training or General Adaptation Syndrome, that will provide you with a better understanding.

Quote:
Overtraining

What you want to do is stress muscles to grow. Working too much lead to overtraining. You stop making progress, as you have. And you eventually get weaker.

That actually happens on a more long term basis.


Yes, the difference betwen over reach and overtraining is in the recovery time.

A 13 week program in which nothing changes is too long even for a novice.


Quote:
What happens immediately with a plan like 5x5 or one of these linear progression plans is that you over reach and then you don't know how to get back.


A 5X5 plan, any plan, can lead to over reach or overtraining.

Individuals who lack experience are those who get lost and don't know how to get back
.


Quote:
Another drawback with these sorts of fancy programs is that you develop massive imbalances which hinder your progress.


"Fancy program" means the program that Dub designed or a 5X5 program?

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:40 pm 
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stuward wrote:
There's a little bit too much overthinking going on.


Great point...and too much information overload.

Kenny

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:23 pm 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Then let me define that a bit more for you. At some point in your cycle, you need to push it to your RM or close to it.

In a three week cycle, the RM needs to be in week three. In a four week cycle, you RM needs to be in week four, etc.


Are you talking specifically about Dub or beginners or is this a general rule? As a general rule this rule does not exist. You can hit your Relative 1RM week in and week out. There is nothing wrong with that. At all.

Quote:
High intensity is never sustainable.


This is also not true. High intensity is sustainable depending on you progress. If you make your singles into doubles into triples that is you just multiplying you ability to handle intensity and in effect bumping up your work capacity at a higher weight.

Quote:
Periodization Training has to is based on The General Adaptation Syndrome. Google either Periodization Training or General Adaptation Syndrome, that will provide you with a better understanding.


These are just concepts and like in everything they have loopholes and can be manipulated accordingly.

Quote:
"Fancy program" means the program that Dub designed or a 5X5 program?


I was referring to 5x5....5/3/1 is a good program, not half as intense as what we do but its a lot better than 5x5 lol...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:54 am 
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Alrigth, I had a feeling you would say this is too fancy and all-over the place. And yeah, it sort of is. But I will keep the split, I'm happy with that. I'm still thinking if I should do 3x5/4x5 type of training, or just build for heavier 3x5 all the time. That would mean that I would keep failing for one or two weeks at a time, but slowly progress.

One thought about assisting moves. I thought I would do deadlift assistance for 3 or 4 sets, with quite low reps (6 or 8), But with upright row and abs I'll do something like 4x8-10. Chins and dips are still building with getting lots of reps with lesser sets. Weight adding is not yet a question, since I don't have the equipment, and I could use a bit more training before that.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:09 am 
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_Wolf_ wrote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Then let me define that a bit more for you. At some point in your cycle, you need to push it to your RM or close to it.

In a three week cycle, the RM needs to be in week three. In a four week cycle, you RM needs to be in week four, etc.


Are you talking specifically about Dub or beginners or is this a general rule? As a general rule this rule does not exist. You can hit your Relative 1RM week in and week out. There is nothing wrong with that. At all.


I am talking about everyone. Your "Training Age" as well as your choronical age has something to do with the length of your training cycle.

A novice can go longer before changing their training cycle than a more advanced lifter.

Your weekly 1RM changes from week to week. NO one can or will hit there top 1RM week in and week out. That's absurd.

That's why Periodization Training exist.


Quote:
High intensity is never sustainable.


Quote:
This is also not true. High intensity is sustainable depending on you progress. If you make your singles into doubles into triples that is you just multiplying you ability to handle intensity and in effect bumping up your work capacity at a higher weight.


The "If" in you statement is something that means it good on paper but doesn't workout in real life with non-stop high intesntity training.

Continuous weekly high intesntisty training turns your triples into doubles and your doubles into singles with the same load.


Quote:
Periodization Training has to is based on The General Adaptation Syndrome. Google either Periodization Training or General Adaptation Syndrome, that will provide you with a better understanding.


Quote:
These are just concepts and like in everything they have loopholes and can be manipulated accordingly.


Periodization Training is the foundation of manipulating increases in strength, size, power, speed, etc.

Quote:
"Fancy program" means the program that Dub designed or a 5X5 program?


Quote:
I was referring to 5x5....5/3/1 is a good program, not half as intense as what we do but its a lot better than 5x5 lol...


Both are good program. Each has it place on the training table.

You don't graps it now, maybe later on you will.

As they say in Ebonics, "We be done"...with this topic.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:06 am 
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Not quite sure why you've BOLDED everything....but:

Quote:
Your weekly 1RM changes from week to week. NO one can or will hit there top 1RM week in and week out. That's absurd.


Not at all. You can even maxout multiple times a week. Who said you cannot do these things?

Quote:
Continuous weekly high intesntisty training turns your triples into doubles and your doubles into singles with the same load.


Well, we're both making absolute statements here which is why I wrote "IF".

Let me be specific. If you run a consolidation cycle using a relative 1RM you actually DO turn your singles into doubles and your doubles into triples.

Can you randomly go in and do this? No. But can you plan it in such a way? Sure!

Quote:
Periodization Training is the foundation of manipulating increases in strength, size, power, speed, etc.


Really? Says who?

Quote:
Both are good program. Each has it place on the training table.


Any cookie cutter is a terrible program in the long run.

People should stop doing "Programs" and start Training.


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