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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:29 pm 
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gosh, this feels like two condescending know it alls going at it.

kinda feels ick


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:40 pm 
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Programs and training are not opposites. A program is simply a plan that one might use to plan training. A particular program might be better than another, and a particular program might be better suited to one person than to another. GUS training is no less a program than 5/3/1 or the Texas Method. Some programs allow/encourage more flexibility or intuitive decision making than others. Some programs are good for people who have not yet learned to think on their feet, or learned to "listen to their body". Some are better for those who have.

I agree with Kenny about the continuous intensity thing. There may well be some people who can develop the capacity to do this, but I don't believe that most can. I've walked that road, and lifting near my max week in and week out shortly means that I don't lift at all. It may work for you, but I doubt that it would work for very many people!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:56 pm 
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perhaps you need to leanr the GUS way and you will be able to approach your relative max weekly, perhaps daily.

ummmm..... ummmmmmm.... ummmmmmm


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:48 am 
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I think half the disagreement is arguing over 2 different definitions as if they are the same.

Kenny refers to absolute 1RM as your, well, absolute 1RM - Your PB, PR, that training session that made you give birth to your spleen, the most weight you have ever lifted.

In that case I agree.

I also agree with _wolf_ though. In fact maxing out every week has been practised by Westside barbell (and others) for years. Different people have different approaches, really. I differentiate between these 2 definitions by talking about singles vs a max. I heavy single and a 1RM are completely different in my eyes. A heavy single being the heaviest you can lift with good form. I agree you can do this weekly and have done myself (and getting back to this). However, with that, whether you like it or not, intensity changes depending on the fatigue present at that time - you may feel good and get a new record, in which case it goes up, or you may feel drained and lift a little less that day, in which case it goes down. if you rotate variations of the lifts (like Westside Barbell do) then things change even more as the load used will vary between variations of the lifts. Also when going for a single, generally you won't get mega psyched up for it. You just get in and get the lift done.

When going for a new 1RM, though, it's "game time" - you just do what you can to make the rep and you get mentally psyched up as much possible. I believe this is what Kenny says you can't do every week i.e. this is what turns triples into doubles and doubles into singles. Doing this every week is comparable to doing a PL competition every week.

Louis Simmons talks a lot about "learning to strain" with maximal weights and this is part of the reason they lift heavy every week because it builds a tolerance to it and you stay closer to your best levels of strength year round. He's said in interviews that he could put his lifters into a competition with at about 3 weeks notice because they're always ready vs needing 12 (or whatever) week cycles to peak.

Different stokes for different folks.

KPj

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:33 pm 
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The guys at GUS do not advocate maxing frequently for a long time, but for a period of time within a planned cycle. They also pay a lot of attention to overall management of fatigue. I used to dread lifting near my max, cause I'd feel so bad afterwards. It has actually been a big enough issue to through me off training. I'm finding that volume is as much or more of an issue for me as the amount I'm lifting. Just as I was pondering this, I read the links that Wolf posted in his journal comments that discussed this. I'm not going to go find the link right now because I need to get ready for work, but it was probably part 2 or 3 of the series of articles.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:50 pm 
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I'm taking the advice on stripping myself a simple program. I will continue with 3x5, but I will do a different split compared to StrongLifts. Feel free to comment on the split too. Also I added some assisting moves, with setscheme that I see is alright.

Workout A:
BB Box Squat 3x5
Deadlift 1x5
Deficit Deadlift/Snatch-grip DL (Altering every other week) 2x5
Abs 4x10

Workout B:
BB Squat 3x5
BB Overhead Press 3x5
Chin-ups (More reps with fewer sets)
Upright Row 4x10

Workout C:
BB Bench Press 3x5
Dead BB Bench Press 6x1
BB Row 3x5
Abs 4x10

Here be my split for a week. I decided to have a deload every four weeks, so it's approx once in a month. The Deadlift assistances are mainly to make my lift from the ground stronger, as the lift off -phase was the part I failed on 1RM testing. The same reason lies with The Dead Bench. It's there to help me getting the bar off my chest, as that seems to be the main problem on my benching right now. More explained about the move on the article. I thought wether to do pause bench presses or these, but I was more eager to try these out first. No doubt, the pause bench would do wonders also. I think the deadlift repscheme is now in order, I will have total of three sets of 5 reps on deadlifts. (2 assistance, 1 conventional). I decided to reduce on Squat workout from my week for starters and wanted to try the Box Squat, because I want to train harder on the glutes and hamstrings.

I'll try out this program next week with deloads, and then start the program with a bit lighter weights, and progress from that point on. I'm planning to do this for atleast 12 weeks, lets see how it goes. Any last comments?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:20 am 
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I would rearrange it to:

Workout A:
Deadlifts 2 x 5 -->> Progress via SDT (This is the Key Lift)
Deficit Deadlift/Snatch-grip DL (Altering every other week) 2x5 -->> nothing set in stone in terms of programming
Chin-ups (More reps with fewer sets ala Density work)

Workout B:
Back Squats - 3 x 5 -->> Progress via SDT
Overhead Press - 3 x 5 --->> Progress via SDT
Dumbbell Rows 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps make them heavy and there is no set system for progress: go by feel. The guidelines are 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps.
Facepulls 2=3 sets of 15-20 reps - Do not go crazy on the volume here...adding weight should be the goal but on a more broad perspective (over months and months)

Workout C:
Box Squats - 3 x 5 -->> Progress via SDT
Bench Press 3 x 5 alternate weekly with Dead Bench Press 6 x 2
Barbell Rows 3 x 5 -->> Progress via SDT

I do think you should be having one unilateral pressing exercise and some more PC work in general - you have nothing here except for Deadlifts and Snatch Pull (or Deficits). There needs to be PC work and one more unilateral squat/pull exercise...

If I were you, I would choose between OHP and Bench and just stick with one. Then Friday would be my day to do all these fun things:

Workout C:
Box Squats -->> Box Squats - 3 x 5 -->> Progress via SDT
Unilateral Overhead Press or Unilateral Bench Press using Dumbbells - 2 x 7 -->> Progress via SDT
Romanian Deadlifts - 3 x 8 -->> Progress via SDT
Reverse Lunges - 2 x 10 -->> no need for progress per say


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:20 am 
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Thanks wolf, that looks like a working split also, And brings out some new angles also. Right now there are just a few pointers that make me keep the own split for now;

1) Squatting 3 x week

Like I've said earlier, I have been squatting heavy for weeks now three times a week. That combined with hard cardio and core work (In example, different games, running, and gymnastics) have taken a toll on me. I want to give my lower back and legs a bit rest also, as I am afraid they will get overworked eventually. My lower back is a bit sore right now acutally, and the deload has come at just the right moment.

2) Ab work

I need to do some ab work. I know squatting and pull-ups and shoulder presses are working on my abs aswell, but I don't think it is enough. I'm not aiming for a six-pack, but I'm worried about my musclebalance. I've had back problems before, I suffered from quite severe stress/strain injuries on my lower back a few years ago, and most likely it was due to inbalance on back and abs. The support of my body was too much on the lower back muscles, which could've caused it. Right now I have this feeling, not pain but a feeling, of fatiqueness on the same area on the lower back (Near the sacrum, and the origo of the Latissmus Dorsi. I've improved my abs very much from that time, but I still feel I need to train them on their own too. That is also why I need to reduce the squatting to twice a week only.

3) PC work

You said I didn't have almost any Posterior Chain work on the program? That might be true, but there are moves that work the hamstrings and glutes also. The Box Squats you didn't even mention for some reason, and the Back Squat works also on the PC, even though it's more of a quad-movement. But the box squats, back squats and two kind of deadlifts is pretty much for intensive leg work. I had a thought of adding one more assisting move on the Workout A, probably Hamstring raises or possibly move for the whole leg, like box jumps (my main idea, it would be a good dynamic movement) or lunges.

4) Bench/OH Press -issue
Your thought was to pick one of the following. This I will not do, as I think it is necessary for me to do both. They are not the same movement, and I do both to work on different muscles. One for shoulders and other for pectoralis. The assisting muscles are just a sidenote, my main purpose is to improve on Bench and Overhead press, and strengthen my shoulders and chest. The effect will not be as proper if I just choose one of them.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:46 am 
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Dub, what are you doing for abs? I agree that there is a need for more than you get from squats. You've probably heard how situps and crunches wear out your lower back. Gray Cook recommends curl ups where the movement takes place in the thoracic spine and abs provide the movement. I like push ups, hanging leg raises and suspension roll outs.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:45 am 
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Yeah sit-ups and crunches haven't been on my training manual in a while. On the last program I mostly used standing cable pull downs, where I mainly get the cable near my skull and just flexed the torso forward, used only the rectus abdominis. I think the movement could be quite similar to the curl ups you mentioned, as the movement happens mainly on the thoracic spine. I also like to do leg raises, hanging, lying and from a support position (The starting position of dips, a little less angle though.). Sometimes I've done ab rolling/rollouts also, but they also affect strongly on my lower back.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:58 am 
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Yes, standing cable pull downs are good. It would be similar to the curl ups. You have to keep the core stable and keep the movement at the top. It's easy to get your hips involved otherwise. I find it helps to focus on tightening the glutes. I find the suspension roll outs a little easier than the ab roller roll outs so you can progress a little better. Just keep lowering the handles towards the floor to make them harder.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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