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 Post subject: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:59 pm 
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I’ve heard the Press like a powerlifter, pull like a bodybuilder and used it to remind myself to have plenty of volume pulling.
Several folks do 5/3/1 and will have some volume pushing, or some home ade program where they may do volume decline bench press and more intense incline press, etc.

If the goal is strength, defined here as the ability to press more weight for 1 to 5 reps, is mixing in volume pressing beneficial? I experiment a lot with routines and most everything works, and as my training age ages, and weights get heavier, its not always clear what makes a difference and what just seems like a good idea. Or is it actually detrimental, adding work without appreciable benefits

So, how true is the “press like a power lifter”?, Or better stated, should that statement be read as only press like a powerlifter, or is it a reminder to go heavy often when pressing, but not necessarily to exclude volume.
I coudl read 5/3/1 or another book but by goah I want your opinion and experience


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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:18 pm 
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pressing with volume makes your pressing muscles bigger. A bigger muscle will be stronger (uh oh, here comes the neural adaptation squad again...), which is all there is to it really.

At least, that's always what I've always thought. I don't think 5/3/1 would have it in there for cosmetic purposes seeing as Wendler's not a bodybuilder


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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:16 pm 
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So would you say, its better to have some lighter weight high volume sprinkled in and not just 3-6 reps sets ?
It's not that I'm suggesting volume is bad; but wondering if it's better than simply sticking to "strength" protcols only. Or, maybe some lifts benefit more from it than other. For each day you volume bench, you lose a day for "strength" training.
Of course, one could do high intensity then finish with volume. But then you are aking more time. Eventually, you have to choose, something to limit, or take more time in the gym than you want




"strength" in quotes is just denoting the accpeted rep range for strength, on the strength - hypertrophy line


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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:05 am 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
For each day you volume bench, you lose a day for "strength" training.

Not necessarily. I think it's possible to train for strength with increased volume. Instead of thinking of prolonged sets for the volume, why not more sets? Use moderate weight, for several low-rep sets, say sets of 3, with enough rest to allow you use fairly challenging weight. Start with weight you are pretty confident will not be too difficult for 2 or 3, then work you way up in small steps (if they are too big, you'll run out of gas before you get in the volume you want) until you get to the point that there is danger of form breaking down. You could probably manage to get in 10 or 12 sets that way, it would satisfy the BB in you, and make you stronger at the same time. Also, if you are careful to keep the form strict, it can be a way to improve the overall quality of the lift. I wouldn't "sprinkle in" so much, as I'd adopt that as a progression method for a few weeks, then shift to a different method.

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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:10 am 
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I just accessorise 5x10 dumbell bench on my 5/3/1 bench day, basically boring but big but with DBS instead of the bar. Does both *shrug* seems to have helped - plus volume pressing tends to reduce my need for multiple tricep isolation exercises (still isolate the long head specifically though)


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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:32 am 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
So would you say, its better to have some lighter weight high volume sprinkled in and not just 3-6 reps sets ?
It's not that I'm suggesting volume is bad; but wondering if it's better than simply sticking to "strength" protcols only. Or, maybe some lifts benefit more from it than other. For each day you volume bench, you lose a day for "strength" training.
Of course, one could do high intensity then finish with volume. But then you are aking more time. Eventually, you have to choose, something to limit, or take more time in the gym than you want




"strength" in quotes is just denoting the accpeted rep range for strength, on the strength - hypertrophy line


I see what you're saying. I personally only press "strength" style once a week, doing my bench 5/3/1 style, then that same session I'll do a 5x10 dumbell press, then later in the week I'll do a 5x10 on an incline.

I still get stronger, so there's definitely carryover between the two.

Bottom line: any good program should have both, and in fact most programs generally do (at least 5/3/1 and WS4SB do...)


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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:19 am 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
I’ve heard the Press like a powerlifter, pull like a bodybuilder and used it to remind myself to have plenty of volume pulling.


Chris Thibaudeau

One of Thibaudeau's training series when into this.

Pulling Muscles

As per Thibaudeau, pulling muscle groups appear to respond better to movement which place the muscle under tension for longer periods. And they respond to higher volume.

1) High Repetitions

2) Higher Sets

3) Long Isometric Actions

4) Etc

Pushing Muscles

Thibaudeau stated that a better trainng effect is elicted with pushing muscle groups with Limited Strength, Power and Speed Movements.

Muscle Fiber Type

Other have come to the same conclusion as Thibaudeau (myself included).

Fast Twich Fiber

Pushing muscle group are composed of more Fast Twich Muscle Fiber.

Slow Twich Fiber

Pulling muscles are composed of more Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber.

"Push Like A Powerlifter...Pull Like A Bodybuilder"

So, that statement makes sense.

If the goal is strength, defined here as the ability to press more weight for 1 to 5 reps, is mixing in volume pressing beneficial?

[color=#000080]Volume

1) Endomorphs (large frame) usually respond better to higher volume.

2) Ectomorphs (small framed) individuals usually do beter with low volume.

3) Mesomorphs (medium frame) are in between.

With that said, those are simply recommendations. You need to see what works best for you
.

Quote:
I experiment a lot with routines and most everything works, and as my training age ages, and weights get heavier, its not always clear what makes a difference and what just seems like a good idea. Or is it actually detrimental, adding work without appreciable benefits


"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing." Einstein

Experimentation is the foundation of learning. You get points from me on doing that.

Work With Benefits

Training is like working. You want to make the most (gains) with the least amount of work.

Press Like A Powerlifter

As I noted above, there is some truth to that statement. However, heavy loads for low repetitions will only take you so far.

To fully maximize pushing muscles, you need...

Explosive Movements

Pushing muscles respond to explosive movement.

Kenny Croxdale

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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:21 pm 
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Thanks for the replies.
If I’m putting a few ideas together, keeping in mind something kpj always reminds us as well, Speed Work is importaint for pressing. So, Speed+Weight = Power (something like that). Adding in the idea that more reps could reduce the amount of isolation (I want stronger triceps mainly to press more, not to have big muscles, it’s a secondary effect), I’m getting more comfortable with leaving in the higher volume work. Finally, I really need to keep a mind to always explode the lift up too.

I’ve shifted more towards lower rep sets more recently (and ramping), adding more sets at the top, but nothing like Doc suggested. I have kept that idea in mind reading some blogs, though. I have found on the Big 3, that I progress better with ramping and some work below 5 reps. Then I also found I may not have been eliciting enough effect with less than 15 total reps. (or <6 with Deadlift). Now I’m moving to more sets on my heavy days and checking my work capacity and recovery. (Doc,) Nonetheless, by “volume” I was talking about specifically higher rep sets, aka light weights. FWIW, I have a 15% BB in me, and 25% power lifter, and 60% just guy who wants to be strong and healthier (dang junk food) and “fit for my age”. That being said, I would not think higher volume the way Doc suggested would elicit the BB growth (of course with any strength+calories can come some growth) because your TUT per set is less. But, I don’t know from experience.

Essentially there are only so many opportunities to lift in a month and I did not want to waste any doing lighter days just “because I read it somewhere”. Because I know sometimes ideas get popularized on the webz, or are more appropriate for different circumstances, but they get thrown around and taken up by folks like me who don’t have time to suss it all out. Afterall, my lifts are still quite low, so, maybe, I’m not suited for lighter days…


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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:29 pm 
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Ozzy, isn't your main focus weight loss? If it is, you'd be better doing higher reps and shortening your rests. Gets the heart rate up and sheds those pounds. Training for strength is all well and good, but it won't have the effect on body composition a higher volume approach. High rep squats with low rest are particularly good. You could do something masochistic like 8x8 or 10x10 with a minute, minute and a half rest. Feel the burn.


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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:39 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
Ozzy, isn't your main focus weight loss? .


not with regards to my lifting


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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:00 pm 
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fair enough, it's not the way I would personally do it but that's just me. I mean, which do you think would be better for your health? Weight loss, or strength training? But to each his own, if your diet's in check then that's the main thing for weight loss anyway


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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Precisely.
I sometimes use complexes, always use supersetting, and include “tabata-ish” style burpees and mountain climbers regularly. However, I know diet is 93% of the weight loss issue with me; so lifting/exercise is focused on strength, increasing work capacity, flexibility, and other similar stuff. It’s not that I’m trying to avoid specific “weight loss routines”, again it comes down to choices you have to make.


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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:42 pm 
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93.2!

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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:56 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
Ozzy, isn't your main focus weight loss? If it is, you'd be better doing higher reps and shortening your rests. Gets the heart rate up and sheds those pounds. Training for strength is all well and good, but it won't have the effect on body composition a higher volume approach. High rep squats with low rest are particularly good. You could do something masochistic like 8x8 or 10x10 with a minute, minute and a half rest. Feel the burn.


According to the site, that's a myth http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Myths.html


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 Post subject: Re: Pressing with Volume
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:09 pm 
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Training for fat loss involves protecting existing muscle, which implies heavy weight and low reps, and intense metabolic activities like complexes, burpees, etc, which create an afterburn effect (AKA excess post-exercise oxygen consumption), thereby burning more calories than you take in overall. That's why guys like Alwyn Cosgrove and Craig Ballantyne are so successful. They use that method with their clients.

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