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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder training
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:21 am 
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I've got big shoulders naturally, but what I've really seen improvements doing is doing upright rows both with a barbell, and with heavy dumbells, alternating hands each rep. Also, try doing dumbbell snatches...do just one arm at a time, and perform sets of 8-12 with heavy dumbbells...Also, pull-ups, while largely a back exercise, will really help develop your shoulders.


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder training
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Here is my advanced bodybuilding workout, or at least a good one I have done and would do again.
It's setup is dictated partly by my weekend work schedule, which includes 12's on Saturday and Sunday, as well as my need for volume, and the amount of time I need to recover from it. Only the isolation is done to failure, by the way.
week 1 I do 2 sets 4 exercises each for chest, back and legs, plus isolation for arms, shoulders and calves.
week 2 I'll do either 3 sets of 4 exercises, or if I add another exercise, I'll do less sets.
week 3 I usually repeat week 2.
week 4 is 2 to 4 sets of 4 to 6 exercises, just chest/back/legs though, isolation I'll do differently.
week 5 is sometimes a repeat of 4.
week 5 or 6 (insanity) is 3 to 5 sets of 4 to 6 exercises, usually falling on the higher end of that. I'll go over it below.
Repeat of week 2
light deload week
Then I go back to maintenance and maybe even skip a week first.

Insanity week:
Mon
squat 3X6-8
leg press 4X8-12
hack sled machine 3x8-12
Romanian deadlift 4X6-8
seated leg curl 6X8-10
standing calf, and 2 different calf press variations combine for 10 sets of 8 to 12.
barbell shrug 4X8-12 1X12-15(done with short rest) Traps had been a week spot, but they're ok now.

Tue
Flat dumbbell press 3X5-8
incline dumbbell press 3X6-10
flat flies 2X10-12
decline flies 2X10-12
incline flies 3X10-12
cable crossover (high position push downish) 3X10-12
cable crossover (low position) 4X10-12
lateral raise 6X8-12
skull crushers 4X8-12 (sometimes last set I might only get 3, and try not to drop it on my head)

Thu
underhand T-bar row 5 sets of varying rep ranges from 5 to 10.
underhand cable pulldown 5X8-12
cable close grip row 5X10-12
overhand cable pulldown (or sometimes a lever machine) 5X8-12
curls of various underhand types (dumbbell and barbell only) 6X8-12
hammer curls 2X8-10
reverse barbell curl 1X10-12
I am very forearm dominant so I have to do some limp wrist curls, or superset them to work biceps. This also means very little forearm isolation.

Many of the principles will be useful, however many of them are geared towards my body, and where I'm at with it right now; and a weird body it is too.

Really the only thing here that would work for everyone (except beginners of course), is the progression towards overtraining, and then recovery. The balance of push/pull/quad/ham is a good principle too.


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder training
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:22 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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cool, thanks for posting that, I love seeing how the big guys train. It's very interesting. I wasn't expecting there to be so much periodisation involved.

I particularly lke the idea of the limp wristed curls. I tried some with an empty bar and felt a much stronger contraction in my biceps so I might give them a try.


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder training
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:36 pm 
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I tend to do limp wrist with dumbbells. It completely takes the forearms out of it. Then when you get to where your biceps can't do another rep, you can move your wrist forward and bring your forearms in to help out. That helped me bring up my biceps, which had been lagging behind.

This isn't periodized so much as there is a progression. I do like to mix rep ranges though if that's what you mean. I think that helps. I do also periodize as in doing other phases. Like sometimes I do strength phases where I do a lot more 5X5 stuff, and mix in heavy triples and even doubles. I'll do less volume and more intensity with those too, and nearly all free weights. I also think it's good to use a MAX-OT-like program to bulk occasionally.

The principle the workout above uses is a progression to overtraining, and then a recovery.

I'm 5'9" with a small frame aside from my barrel shape chest (wrists under 6" for example), in between the "hard" and "full house" look like 16 or 17%, so not ripped, but far from fat; and I'm still over 200 lbs.


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder training
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:08 am 
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Location: Texas
Bradford presses for shoulders.
Kroc rows and chins for back.

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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder training
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:10 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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yeah I tend to mis-use the word periodisation, I just think of it as any training with different training phases.

So I guess what you do would be called "overreaching". That's a pretty cool concept. I've always wanted to try it but I don't think my fragile joints could handle the volume necessary.

5'9" and over 200lbs? Jeez, that's huge. Usually anyone who like Monty Python as much as you that weighs over 200 got there through Doritos and computer games, as opposed to lifting weights and low carb diets, hehe


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder training
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:01 pm 
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He is an IT guy robert. They all eat doritos and play computer games. Once (and this guy is a legend) an IT guy actually talked to a live woman.

(I'm just poking fun Ironman)

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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder training
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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haha, Ironman's turned everything I know about geeks upside down. They're not supposed to be bigger and stronger than cool kids like me!

It's like my whole life's been a lie


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder training
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:01 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
yeah I tend to mis-use the word periodisation, I just think of it as any training with different training phases.

So I guess what you do would be called "overreaching". That's a pretty cool concept. I've always wanted to try it but I don't think my fragile joints could handle the volume necessary.

5'9" and over 200lbs? Jeez, that's huge. Usually anyone who like Monty Python as much as you that weighs over 200 got there through Doritos and computer games, as opposed to lifting weights and low carb diets, hehe


As a matter of fact, that's how I got into bodybuilding. It started as health and fitness with the main goal being to lose weight. I used to weigh 255 as a couch potato. I had done some weights, lost a little weight and then gained it back. I was at 268 then, but a lot of that 13 lbs was muscle because I had done some weights previously, but I may have been just a bit fatter than I was at 255. I watched movies played games, and ate lots of chips, chocolate, fast food and doughnuts. I still watch movies and play games quite a bit. However I also skip the junk food, and lift weights.

I certainly did have issues with social skills, and at one time with women. However I kind of figured out ways to make it work for me, and ended up doing alright with women anyway.

Other than the occasional weight phase in gym, I never lifted until right before I turned 27. Then I gained my weight back, and started over just before turning 28. After a year of nice beginner gains I was hooked on bodybuilding. I'm 35 now, 36 in May. I'm big, but it's not always easy to tell. My arms for example, are only 16", which isn't that big by the numbers, but on a guy with small wrists, they look more like 18. The other problem is when you aren't totally ripped, and have a small frame, you tend to look like a larger framed person that doesn't lift. The loose skin doesn't help either. So I only get stares when I'm completely pumped up.

So that's how a geek gets into bodybuilding. When you think about it, aside from the physical nature of it, bodybuilding is pretty nerdy. Like all the detail that goes into planning meals and workouts, as well as knowing muscles, and which movements use them.


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder training
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:45 pm 
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yeah, programming is just an optimization problem.
reminds me of an intro Operations REsearch course I had. Definitely agree on the nerdy aspect of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder training
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:09 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Ironman wrote:
As a matter of fact, that's how I got into bodybuilding. It started as health and fitness with the main goal being to lose weight. I used to weigh 255 as a couch potato. I had done some weights, lost a little weight and then gained it back. I was at 268 then, but a lot of that 13 lbs was muscle because I had done some weights previously, but I may have been just a bit fatter than I was at 255. I watched movies played games, and ate lots of chips, chocolate, fast food and doughnuts. I still watch movies and play games quite a bit. However I also skip the junk food, and lift weights.

I certainly did have issues with social skills, and at one time with women. However I kind of figured out ways to make it work for me, and ended up doing alright with women anyway.

Other than the occasional weight phase in gym, I never lifted until right before I turned 27. Then I gained my weight back, and started over just before turning 28. After a year of nice beginner gains I was hooked on bodybuilding. I'm 35 now, 36 in May. I'm big, but it's not always easy to tell. My arms for example, are only 16", which isn't that big by the numbers, but on a guy with small wrists, they look more like 18. The other problem is when you aren't totally ripped, and have a small frame, you tend to look like a larger framed person that doesn't lift. The loose skin doesn't help either. So I only get stares when I'm completely pumped up.

So that's how a geek gets into bodybuilding. When you think about it, aside from the physical nature of it, bodybuilding is pretty nerdy. Like all the detail that goes into planning meals and workouts, as well as knowing muscles, and which movements use them.


that's a pretty awesome weight loss story, I love hearing about extreme body transformations. I would have been in pretty much the exact same boat as you if it weren't for really good genetics for staying lean. Before I picked up a barbell I did no sports or any types of exercise, and just sat on my arse all day eating crap, watching movies and smoking dope.

Now I'm 50lbs heavier, but put my in a hooded top and I still don't even look like I lift! It's coming though, 200lbs by summer next year is definitely achievable.

And yeah I definitely agree about the nerdy aspects of bodybuilding, which is why people get such a surprise when they realise I'm into it. I'm the laziest, least meticulous person on the planet in all aspects of my life except bodybuilding. I never plan anything, and I struggle with motivation, but I'll be in the gym 4 times a week and eat exactly what I need every day. It's the only discipline I ever show


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder training
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:02 pm 
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Location: Texas
I trust a meathead over a doctor on diet and exercise. Now a meathead doctor, that's the bee's knees.

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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder training
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:01 pm 
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hoosegow wrote:
I trust a meathead over a doctor on diet and exercise. Now a meathead doctor, that's the bee's knees.

Hello?

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Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan


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