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 Post subject: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:01 pm 
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Hey im been working out for about 2 years now

I weight 104kg and height 183cm looking to get shed some fat slowly and still keep gaining muscle :)

My current workout routine is

Monday:
Flat Bench press 5x5
Barbell rows 5x5
Lateral raises with cable 3x8

Wednesday:
Squat 5x5
Leg curl 5x5
Abs 3x20
Standing calf raise 5x5
Sometimes standing bicep curl 3x8

Friday:
Flat Bench press 5x5
Barbell rows 5x5
Lateral raises with cable 3x8

Used to do everything with 3 sets 6-10 reps but that stopped working long time ago and i changed to 5x5 and started gaining again but im stalling now again.
Other important thing to mention is i recover very slowly and now that im even on mild diet i feel i need to make friday a light workout. Im taking vitamins every morning, taking my protein shake after workout and eating steadily throught the day. Im using workout boosters which i think are really useful sometimes when you dont feel like going :)

Im changing movements after 1-2months like for example barbell bench press -> dumbell bench press and row -> pulldowns

Bench press sets look like this now 90kgx5, 95kgx4 97,5kgx3 (close grip 90x5 also nearly same)
Rows 90kgx5, 95kgx5, 100kgx5

Squat(deep,atleast according to powerlifter who watched me do it :P) 110x5, 120x5, 130x4, 140x1
My legs recover VERY slowly and doing them once a week rather than twice made squat go up from 90kgx5-> 130kgx4 in pretty fast

Now im looking any tips and hints how to start gaining again :)

Personally im been thinking of making friday a light day atleast on pushing movements since back seems to recover faster and i was thinking of switching bench press from friday to either incline bp or military press and going for 10 reps lighter/medium.

So any tips and hints are welcome feel free to ask questions. Im not sure if i included all the nessecery information :)


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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:52 pm 
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If changing your rep-set scheme before helped you overcome a stall, it probably would again. Try some 3x3 or 5x2 or whatever. I notice that all your lifts are 5x5. There's no reason that they should all be the same. You might want to try doing the isolation lifts for higher total reps, and the "big lifts" for lower, but that's not set in stone either. If you really "listen to your body", that is pay attention to how you do on every rep of every set, you can't adjust the reps and sets as you go along. This will certainly result in different schemes going for each lift. 5x5 is the holy grail of weight training, and there is no real reason why it should be.

The other changes you propose would be fine. In general, do your most challenging lifts, or the lifts that you choose to prioritize on the day when you are freshest, so in your case, Monday. Then having Friday as a relatively light day would allow better recovery from the fatigue you acquire early in the week. Think about your own needs and priorities, and plan accordingly.

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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:53 pm 
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Nice, an Arnold/Pumping Iron reference.

You probably need to try different stuff. Maybe back up to higher rep ranges. Do some of your sets in the 10-12 range. Maybe ad in another exercise too. So maybe you do dumbbell press 3X6-8 and decline flies 3X10-12. That will let you ad a little more volume, without wearing yourself out too much. Then maybe add cable row in with barbell row. A little less taxing, allowing for a little more volume. I would go to failure on calves, so don't just stop at 5 reps or whatever. It might be time for a 3 days split as well.

The most important thing, I think would be doing an incline pressing movement and a vertical pulling movement. If you follow anything I said, this is the most important. I think these are the right advices. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:30 pm 
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It's physically impossible to be in an anabolic state and lose fat at the same time. You can cycle every month between eating enough to gain mass, and reducing your intake to loss weight.


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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:39 pm 
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That's a pretty bold sweeping absolute declaration. Can you offer some evidence or research or logic to support that statement? It sounds screwy to me. Every part of your body does not necessarily do the same things at the same time. Muscle and fat are very different tissues. And what is "an anabolic state"? Anabolism and catabolism are going on simultaneously all your life. If you are not in this "anabolic state" you must be withering away to nothing, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:52 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
That's a pretty bold sweeping absolute declaration. Can you offer some evidence or research or logic to support that statement? It sounds screwy to me. Every part of your body does not necessarily do the same things at the same time. Muscle and fat are very different tissues. And what is "an anabolic state"? Anabolism and catabolism are going on simultaneously all your life. If you are not in this "anabolic state" you must be withering away to nothing, right?


Sure, your body is in both states but to gain mass, you have to be more anabolic than catabolic at the end of the day. Simply put, even if you have the right stimulus at the end of the day, you won't gain mass if you don't take in enough calories. You won't lose weight if you take in more calories than you burn. I don't think my statement is bold, I'm just stating the facts. I feel like the media has created this, Build muscle while you burn body fat craze and it simply isn't true.


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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:48 pm 
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To say it's physically impossible is wrong. It's not likely, since one normally requires a calorie surplus and one requires a calorie deficit but you can do it in certain circumstances. In the OPs case, cycling carbs somewhere between daily to a weekly basis, doing heavy strength training and incorporating intense cardio, it's very reasonable to lose fat and gain muscle at roughly the same time. To say something is impossible, just means you don't understand how yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:00 pm 
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stuward wrote:
To say it's physically impossible is wrong. It's not likely, since one normally requires a calorie surplus and one requires a calorie deficit but you can do it in certain circumstances. In the OPs case, cycling carbs somewhere between daily to a weekly basis, doing heavy strength training and incorporating intense cardio, it's very reasonable to lose fat and gain muscle at roughly the same time. To say something is impossible, just means you don't understand how yet.


You can do it in the same week, but not the same point in time.


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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:34 pm 
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BlazingAirMAx wrote:
You can do it in the same week, but not the same point in time.


just to play around here...

Can you do it both in a 5 day period?
3 day?
...

1 day?

Where do you make the cut off?
I'd imagine given the stimulus, you can presume you are building muscle the instant you have excess fuel (and sufficient protein), and our burning fat when you don't - lets pretend I know nothing about how it all works because I dont.
What is the barrier you have to cross to go from one state to the other, that you cannot do instantly, by runnig out of fuel, or getting more fuel?


srs, I'm ignorant.


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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:53 pm 
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Clint, I can't tell you all the mechanisms but cycling back and forth between a calorie/carb surplus and a calorie/carb deficit, assuming the proper training stimulus and adequate nutrients should build muscle and cause fat loss over time. There are all kinds of transformation testimonials from lots of fat loss gurus that are quite credible. Carb cycling has been done for a long time by many people and it does work. It's easier when you're younger but even old guys can do it. And I haven't even considered newbie gains yet. Being in an obese state is actually catabolic. As you lose fat, your body will gain muscle simply due to hormonal changes associated with losing fat. Of course it helps if you actually exercise at the same time.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:02 pm 
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There is no such thing as an "anabolic state" that affects the whole body. Anabolism and catabolism (including fat loss) affect individual tissues for varying periods of time. There is no reason to think that it is "physically impossible" for there to be stimulus for muscle gain, and the body use fat stores to supply the energy for it. It's common in the unfit who start to strength train. That could be going on regardless of the over-all calorie surplus or deficit.

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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Clint, I've been thinking about your question all day. When you consider how fat is stored or burned, or how muscle is broken down and rebuilt, you realize that everything happens in cycles. At different points during the day, or training cycle, your body goes through phases where different processes take place in a sequence. This is why the notion of "simultaneous" is just wrong to start with. You don't build muscle all day long and you don't burn fat all day long. Every day you build muscle and you lose muscle, you burn fat and you store fat. The goal is at the end of a cycle, you have more muscle and less fat that you started with. There's no reason that you can't do that. You just have to manage the cycle and provide the training stimulus and the right nutrients at the right time that your bodies going to need them along with recovery time. Actually, it would be very normal to "simultaneously" build muscle and burn fat at night while you're sleeping. In fact, I would suggest that that is the normal state. During the day when your active and eating, you deplete your muscles and increase fat.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:21 pm 
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I would also mention the fact that the phenomenon has been demonstrated to happen in certain circumstances. Overweight beginners for one. Every overweight beginner can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. I did it myself. I trained several people that did this too. You can test it and verify the results every time.

The other way is certain steroids. Trenbolone in particular will cause both fat loss and muscle gain, regardless of diet, in virtually everyone that uses it. It has to do with nutrient shuttling. Normally the body will mobilize fat for use in muscle building. However tren has a dramatic affect on that, and make the body do exactly that. In the example above, the need for adaptation to a completely new stress, is able to override the body's usual preference for fat stores, particularly when fat is at a big surplus.

You can of course cycle, which is sort of doing both, but not really.


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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:38 pm 
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tren can also make you lactate! No thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Any advices :)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:57 pm 
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robertscott wrote:
tren can also make you lactate! No thanks


It can have all sorts of negative side effects. Usually people run cabergoline with it to stop lactation. It can be problematic though, so a lot of steroid users will avoid that one.


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