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What about using a lighter weight? I do high-sh volume Deads on some Heavy Squat days

My form sucks on all exercises when I fatigue. Of course, sometimes that is more dangerous

Backs love getting stronger too, like a chest and leg. Yes, higher volume add strength but not the same. Across threads we have concluded that backs, chest, legs, all need volume and low reps. It's getting ludacris. FWIW, I do low reps dead, pulls downs, and rows, and high rep, deads, pulls downs, rows, delts rows, and face pulls.

This seems arbitrary.

Yeah, that's what he explained. The "really tired" part, not the "knacker's yard" part. I sure sounded like "nekkid".

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Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan

your form shouldn't break down particularly using lighter weight, but I think that Romanian deads would be a better choice for high rep stuff.



you kind of answered this for me. Fatiguing on deadlifts'll make you round your back and your discs shoot out across the room. Failing on the bench the spotter just takes it.



if you increase your 10RM, you've gotten stronger. I really don't see why this is so hard to grasp. If you increase your weight or reps on any exercise, you've gotten stronger! Stength is not limited to 5 reps or less. Sheesh!

And when did we conclude that all these bodyparts "need" low reps? I didn't get the memo. I don't think that quads need low volume to GROW, but if you want to increase your max on squats then yes, I can see the benefit (although powerlifter style squats are MUCH more hip/hasmtring...). Backs, on the other hand, I still don't see the need for low reps.

If I were you Ozzy I would seriously consider getting rid of the low rep pulldowns...



I don't think so. Imagine you were a wrestler or a rock climber, you would need to increase your vertical pull without necessarily building huge amounts of muscle. For the average guy looking for mass, I would still say that sets of 8 - 12 would be the best.

Remember that muscle mass is still the #1 indicator of health, not to mention how sweet you'll look in a string vest

I understand getting stronger at 10 RM is getting stronger. But as you note with the low rep weighted chins, there is a difference between strength of 3 RM vs 12 RM.
How hard is that to grasp, after all you typed it but then act like I'm the one not getting it?

I can't do pull ups so I do heavish pull downs, not below 6 reps
Some sets are 15 reps.

Fatigue on Bench means bad form not always fail.

kpj suggested we dont just do high volume back work, but also work in the higher intensity ranges too. Plus, it's common sense.

then why did you say backs like to get stronger?

I'm not sure if there's just a miscommunication going on, or if you don't understand the example. I mentioned weighted chins for athletes because for certain sports strength:bodyweight ratio es muy importante. This is the only benefit I see of training vertical pulls in the so called "strength" range.



ok, I thought you were trying for like a 3rm of pulldowns, I understand now.



semantics



proof by authority fallacy? Also, common sense is very subjective

<3

Why exclusively one range or the other for ANY body part or region? Bob, you often say something like "backs love volume", but don't they love intensity, too? People often train DL low-rep only, but doesn't your PC benefit from volume? Is there any muscle or body part that benefits from one vol-intensity range and not another? I'm not saying that you have to train all ranges all the time, but that there are times that any given body part can benefit from one or the other. For a priority lift, I'm usually doing both, but for other lifts, one or the other.

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Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan

I actually do believe that certain body parts favour different rep ranges. I believe backs (all the carrying stuff muscles really) prefer higher rep ranges, whereas pushing muscles prefer a little less. Quads love high reps (REALLY high), glutes and hams prefer low reps. Shoulders prefer high.

It's to do with muscle fiber make up and motor units. I read a really interesting article on it somewhere, I think it was by Chad Waterbury, that really resonated with me because it mirrored what I've found through my own training. I'll try and find it.

Chad Waterbury would do things like a large amount of 3 rep sets. So when he talks volume it can mean that.

I find low rep dumbbell rows to be as good as anything else. I don't see most body parts as needing more or less reps. There are a few exercises that are like that. I was speaking more in general though. I have also found that not everyone has the same response to training. Optimal training varies from person to person.

I remember that from his Big Boy Basics program. Eight sets of 3, and three sets of 8.

This is a good discussion, and an area I could really stand to learn a lot more about.

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that's just god when he's drunk

ya, but he also does things like 100 reps for other stuff. I even saw the other day that for shoulder development he recommends 5 minutes of shadow-boxing daily, which I don't think I'll be trying anytime soon. I like Waterbury, but I find him a bit like Poliquin in the respect that some of the stuff he recommends is so leftfield that I wouldn't try it. I'll see if I can find the article, he goes into depth about which body parts favour certain rep ranges.

hmmm I've been looking but can't find the article. It doesn't look like it was Waterbury after all. I'll keep trying

That sounds like something Poloquin might write.

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Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan

I've been thinking about this in the back of mind since you said it. In my opinion, it's really not so much the nunber of reps that matter, it's the load as a percentage of your max. For a typical person, optimal hypertrophy comes from working in the 80-85% of 1RM range. I think this would be generally universal across the body for that individual's training state. It may go up or down at different stages, but it should be relatively constant for different movements at a fixed point in time. The difference in rep ranges for different body parts comes from the muscle fibre differences in each muscle which are different between body parts. My shoulders will fatique much faster than my legs so an 85% load might last 5 reps for shoulders but last 20 reps for legs. If you just go 8 reps for every body part, some will be worked harder than others. If I do 8 reps on shoulders, the early reps will be too easy and the last will be burning. 8 reps on leg presses will be hard from the first rep but still not fatiqued at the end.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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Thanks TimD

i think that's a very interesting point Stu