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 Post subject: Shoulder Problems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:49 am 
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Hey guys i've had shoulder problems about 4 months ago. I believe i worked my shoulders too hard a couple of times and they got sore. Stopped that immidietly afterwards and reduced any unnessecery workouts for shoulders that helped. I've had no pains for like 3 months and still dont have any pain and this problem was only in my stronger side which is right side. But here comes the problem :( my right side is not as stable and there is notable strength loss in it. It shows especially in long sets of bench press. I have done dumbbell bench press that seemed to help little but my development hindered pretty quick and i went back to barbell. Barbell bench went good until now i started showing serious lack of strength and stability on right side again! I took on progressive program 1st week 2x12x70kg-> went pretty good, 2nd 2x10x75kg went ok , 3rd week 2x8x80 -> went horrible from the start of 1st rep. Annoying thing is ive done 90kgx5 and 95kgx4 now cant cope with 10kg less...
I never went to doctor because im already know what they are going to "do" and say. "Take 2 weeks rest and start slow"

I've been reading here that i should add more pull movements + external rotations. I will do that starting today!
So far my push/pull been 1:1 i was thinking something like was meantioned here Strength and volyme for back.

My workout is like this:

Monday:
Barbell Bench press
Barbell Row
Lateral raise
Tricep
Bicep

Wednesday:
Squat etc

Friday:
Military press
chinups
pulldown
Bench press 40-60% load speed reps

Saturday:
Deadlift

And ofc funny thing is i never had any problems with military press! :) Im doing military press with barely over shoulder width grip and bench press is wide but not too wide. While right side is unstable im able to bench normally with very close grip but that hurts my front deltoid sometimes on the next day. I was thinking to change wide grip bench to same grip as im using in military press not wide not close but neutral :)


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder Problems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:12 am 
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Ok, ok, I'm trying out my new moderator powers. This was a bit of a hijack which probably would be better as a separate thread, so there you have it.

Kibe, when you want to take discussion a different direction, as in talking about your shoulders instead of Ken's, it usually works well just to make a new thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder Problems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:14 am 
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@Doc, glad to see you in charge!

What struck me is the two similarities to my own situation:

1) Not enough pulling movements historically
2) The problem is on the stronger side. In my case my left is stronger, and that's where the problem is.

I'm wondering if those of us with a notable left/right strength imbalance end up favoring the strong side and then end up weakening it through injury.


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder Problems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:48 pm 
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I forgot to mention my program is 8 weeks progressive 12,10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 reps 1st week 12 reps and 8th week 2 reps. I do this only for bench, squat, deadlift and military press.
On the 4th week i add some extra assistance monday dumbbell bp 3x10, wednesday leg press or leg extension 3x10 and friday dumbbell shoulder press 3x10 to balance out the volume drop in the end.

Now im considering something like monday with strength back workouts like barbell row 5x5, pulldown or pullup 5x5 + assistance rear deltoid row, external rotation
Friday would be volume pullup or pulldown 3x10, cable row 3x10, + assistance rear deltoid row and external rotation

Would this be ok or im overdoing the change :scratch:

its something like pull/push 1.5-2:1 if you dont count rear deltoid row

Actually did today military press 2x8, pulldown 3x10, rear deltoid row 3x10, cable row 3x10, Curl 3x10 and Ext rot 3x10. Felt a bit long but i guess thats just me and my friends making unnessecery chat in gym :smile:
Friday has been a light day so thats why i have only 1 press movement there to make sure i recover properly to mondays chest workout while on diet :)
Even while i was eating huge amounts my chest, deltoids barely recovered if i had 2 hard chest days

Maybe drop 1 set out of pulldown and row


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder Problems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:06 pm 
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I don't understand the rep scheme. I do understand that you're doing it the same for DL, squat, bench and press, which seems pretty crazy to me. Why would you be doing the exact same reps for DL as you are for bench, etc?

Also, if the program is designed with decreasing volume, maybe there's a reason. I'm much less a fan of cookie-cutter programs than I was in the past, but if the author of a program had a particular reason for tapering volume, and then you start throwing in extra volume to "balance" it, maybe that's not completely good. I don't understand the program, so I won't be adamant.

Your basic template isn't bad, one "big" lift each day, with some assistance.
kibe69 wrote:
Now im considering something like monday with strength back workouts like barbell row 5x5, pulldown or pullup 5x5 + assistance rear deltoid row, external rotation
Friday would be volume pullup or pulldown 3x10, cable row 3x10, + assistance rear deltoid row and external rotation

Is this stuff you're thinking about adding, or a complete change in your template?

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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder Problems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:06 pm 
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Also, are all your friends at the gym doing the same program?

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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder Problems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
I don't understand the rep scheme. I do understand that you're doing it the same for DL, squat, bench and press, which seems pretty crazy to me. Why would you be doing the exact same reps for DL as you are for bench, etc?

Also, if the program is designed with decreasing volume, maybe there's a reason. I'm much less a fan of cookie-cutter programs than I was in the past, but if the author of a program had a particular reason for tapering volume, and then you start throwing in extra volume to "balance" it, maybe that's not completely good. I don't understand the program, so I won't be adamant.

Your basic template isn't bad, one "big" lift each day, with some assistance.
kibe69 wrote:
Now im considering something like monday with strength back workouts like barbell row 5x5, pulldown or pullup 5x5 + assistance rear deltoid row, external rotation
Friday would be volume pullup or pulldown 3x10, cable row 3x10, + assistance rear deltoid row and external rotation

Is this stuff you're thinking about adding, or a complete change in your template?


Im thinking about adding this type of str back training for monday and volyme back training for friday.
The reason im throwing in extra dumbbell exercises because i want to balance my right and left side while still working on the main barbell moves which i want to improve. I dont want to get too much volume thats why i add it later on when reps get low on main moves.

No my friends are not doing these workouts :) they grind the same stuff over and over 8 reps then try add more weight and end up gaining nothing. Even though i tell them to make changes...

Anyway the original program had assistance moves like dip and incline bench press so i dont think im messing up that much :) I dont do dips my shoulders dont feel good while doing it so i stopped long time ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder Problems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:10 pm 
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Anyway this is what im planning to do now

Monday
Barbell Bench press 2x12-2 (weekly change in reps)
pullup/pulldown 5x5
Barbell row 5x5
Dumbbell flat or incline bench press 2x10 from week 4 (when main move sets drop to 2x6)
Triceps 3x10
Bicep 3x10
Rear delts 3x10
External rotation 3x10

Wednesday
Squat
abs

Friday
Military press 2x12-2 (weekly change in reps)
Pullup/pulldown 2x10
Cable row 2x10
Dumbbell shoulder press 2x10 from week 4 ( main move sets 2x6 )
Bicep 3x10
Rear delts 3x10
External rotation 3x10

Saturday
DL
abs

That should help with my shoulders. I could do dumbbell assistance from start but then i would have pretty high volume for first 3 weeks dont know if its a bad or good thing but im going to throw dumbbell assistance in at 4th week. Original program had incline bench as assistance throughout the cycle.

Again had no problems today with military press did 2x8x47,5kg thats 2,5kg behind on what i planned but its not too bad im more worried about the shoulder stability in bench press anyway then improving anything.

If bench seems to be going poorly still at monday im most likely dropping it for few weeks or doing just light dumbbell workouts to recover properly.


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder Problems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:15 pm 
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So, on your main lifts you are decreasing reps from week to week? And adding weight? I understand now, I think.

I still think that's a lot of stuff to do on Monday and Friday. I'd suggest maybe being a bit more selective.

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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder Problems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:28 pm 
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And out of curiousity since you havent given any, what sort of rep ranges and sets would you suggest for my main moves, barbell bench press, military press, deadlift and squat ?
How about secondary movements like pulldowns, rows?

Isolation / assistance you were talking about high total reps? 3x8,10, 12, 20 ?
I've never been fan of too high reps in any move assistance or main i have noticed no improvements when going past 10-12 reps

For example i used to do abs for 20-30 reps. I had no improvements there what so ever. Now i have improved more in 2 months than i did in last 2 years on abs with 3x8-10 and adding resistance in every set.

And i do partially agree with going high rep on squat and deadlift is questionable but if nothing else grows then atleast my will power and spirit will! Because 1st week with 12 rep squat and deadlift was pain in the ass i was so exhausted after!


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder Problems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:48 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
So, on your main lifts you are decreasing reps from week to week? And adding weight? I understand now, I think.

I still think that's a lot of stuff to do on Monday and Friday. I'd suggest maybe being a bit more selective.


Correct! Decreasing reps weekly and adding weight weekly. I do think the same about monday and friday. But since RC and back needs work...
I could take out rear delt workout and rely just on ext rot workout to cure my shoulders but both of these are quick to do anyway so it wouldnt do much on total time spent on gym.
Arms, rear delt and rc workout doesnt take much time to do and i believe my triceps need the attention.

Someone might say drop the bicep curls but i used to have elbow pain from pushing exercises and standing bicep curls(pulldowns/rows didnt) relief or remove the pain completely some muscular imbalance i guess + alot of stretching for wrist extendors and avoiding wrist flexor stretches.


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 Post subject: Re: Shoulder Problems
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:44 pm 
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I did my bench workout today with 2 fingers narrower grip and it did feel more balance but i can still definetly feel right side is not that balanced.

Todays sets were barbellx10, 40x10, 60x8, 70x6, 80x6, 87,5x5(1 rep too few of aim), 85x4. Im lagging in strength probably because of diet, shoulder and narrower grip. Friend told me im doing the reps very slowly when i was doing the 2nd last set. So we took some weight off i tried to do 6 faster i end up only doing 4 barely with 85kg. Month ago i was doing 90x5, 95x4, 97,5kgx3.

Workout was too long even though i took less rest between assistance sets. I will be taking the bicep and triceps off to make it shorter and less taxing. Doing 1 back workout with supinated grip to prevent elbow pain (dont know why but it seems to help alot)

I've seen alot of talk about that feeling the back muscles while working them and cheat reps. Today i corrected my cable rows, back straight, no hip movement and pulling my scapula together in each rep. Well i had to use about 20kg less weight to correctly do it without anykind of cheating. Should be one step closer to healthier back and shoulders.

Bodyweight today was 99,1kg down from 106,5kg in just little over month :)


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