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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 6:56 am 
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BillDeSimone wrote:
You don't know what effect years of heavy squats would have on your spine?


Not to the satisfaction of the criteria I presented earlier when evaluating scientific claims, no. I can make some pretty good estimations, but nothing that's going to stand up to the burden of proof. Which is, and will continue to be, my point. I have an educated, experienced opinion, but I'm not going to claim its anything more than that.

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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:06 am 
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With all due respect, I have a hand/box full of anatomy, biomechanics, physical therapy, spine/back, and movement related books, a lot of which i've read cover to cover a few times, most of which I quite regularly refer to when i'm mulling over things - I wouldn't normally say this to support a point but, this seems to be the main backing of your own. Your interpretation of studying biomechanics leaves you with such conlusions as - the spine is just like a pyramid, and the shoulder shouldn't move back that much because it doesn't have a knee cap (I found the comparison of knee to shoulder quite interesting... I would of compared knee to elbow, both hinge joints. I think biomechanics clearly shows that the shoulder "complex" is quite unique in how it functions). I, nor did any of the authors (most whom have decades of experience and are among the most referenced books in the training and health field), came to the same supposedly "obvious" conclusion about what does or does not detroy your spine. Either i'm just not smart enough yet or, the conclusion you have came to just isn't that obvious at best, and doesn't make sense at worse. I'm going out on a whim and saying whilst biomechanics is a crucial part of the picture, it doesn't tell us the whole story, and is still easily subject to difference in opinion.

Again, all else constant, and nothing else considered, the addition of back squatting a lone over not squatting will cause more damage to the spine. If that's your statement then I agree with it. However, if movement is being dismissed (I don't think being able to move well before we add external load is an "over complication", although I do tend to over explain things), and damage/wear and tear and pain/injury are being classed as one and the same, then I can't see how the discussion can continue to be constructive. You seem to base a lot of what you say on how you think we were built and why, but dismiss how we were supposed to move and why.

Therefore, agreeing to disagree is probably the best outcome.

KPj

p.s lift with your HIPS, not your legs, if you want to spare the spine :wink:
p.p.s I'll shut up now.

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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:23 am 
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JasonJones wrote:
BillDeSimone wrote:
You don't know what effect years of heavy squats would have on your spine?


Not to the satisfaction of the criteria I presented earlier when evaluating scientific claims, no. I can make some pretty good estimations, but nothing that's going to stand up to the burden of proof. Which is, and will continue to be, my point. I have an educated, experienced opinion, but I'm not going to claim its anything more than that.


"...I have an educated, experienced opinion..."

Yes, me too.


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:33 am 
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KPj wrote:
With all due respect, I have a hand/box full of anatomy, biomechanics, physical therapy, spine/back, and movement related books, a lot of which i've read cover to cover a few times, most of which I quite regularly refer to when i'm mulling over things - I wouldn't normally say this to support a point but, this seems to be the main backing of your own. Your interpretation of studying biomechanics leaves you with such conlusions as - the spine is just like a pyramid, and the shoulder shouldn't move back that much because it doesn't have a knee cap (I found the comparison of knee to shoulder quite interesting... I would of compared knee to elbow, both hinge joints. I think biomechanics clearly shows that the shoulder "complex" is quite unique in how it functions). I, nor did any of the authors (most whom have decades of experience and are among the most referenced books in the training and health field), came to the same supposedly "obvious" conclusion about what does or does not detroy your spine. Either i'm just not smart enough yet or, the conclusion you have came to just isn't that obvious at best, and doesn't make sense at worse. I'm going out on a whim and saying whilst biomechanics is a crucial part of the picture, it doesn't tell us the whole story, and is still easily subject to difference in opinion.

Again, all else constant, and nothing else considered, the addition of back squatting a lone over not squatting will cause more damage to the spine. If that's your statement then I agree with it. However, if movement is being dismissed (I don't think being able to move well before we add external load is an "over complication", although I do tend to over explain things), and damage/wear and tear and pain/injury are being classed as one and the same, then I can't see how the discussion can continue to be constructive. You seem to base a lot of what you say on how you think we were built and why, but dismiss how we were supposed to move and why.

Therefore, agreeing to disagree is probably the best outcome.

KPj

p.s lift with your HIPS, not your legs, if you want to spare the spine :wink:
p.p.s I'll shut up now.


You didn't read Moment Arm Exercise, Congruent Exercise, I don't know that you watched the videos, yet you have no problem summarizing the work and reading my mind. Just so everyone else knows, you're criticising your interpretation, not the work itself. Yes, the discussion is no longer constructive, so we agree on that. For anyone interested in the actual material, pages ago I put links up, and I may put a separate post on the board, so not to interfere with the original squat discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:10 am 
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Been reading this thread with very serious interest ever since it got really interesting :smile: . The thought that sort of crystalizes my initial question and quest for help is this one from Bill.

BillDeSimone wrote:
If you don't get hurt doing them, you are exceptional, or it hasn't caught up to you yet, because it is cumulative.


Aging damage is, by definition, cumulative. I want to be strong now and into the foreseeable future without also doing something (engaging in activities) that will impact me negatively later in life. I want to move well when I'm 50, 60, 70.

While engaging in this squat conversation you've all actually touched on the fundamental question I've been asking myself for some time: "Are the things I'm doing now to be healthy going to bite me in the ass in 10, 15, 20 years?" Is it worth pushing myself to deadlift 600lbs now if I can't walk upright when I'm 60? I've had lower back pain, and it has stopped me from being able to engage in the activities I would like to participate in. I don't want to do something now that will make that a way of life for me later. I've never had shoulder pain but have some idea what it does to your activity level when you can't raise your arms above your head. Same with knee or hip issues.

I dont think there's anybody that can say there is no "wearing", or cumulative damage effect, that results from exercise. Life itself causes it. Simple thermodynamics demand that entropy and disorder increase. Training is based on the idea of putting stress on the system, forcing it to adapt. To repair the damage caused by the training activity. The real question is what is the tradeoff I'm making? I am stressing my joints, bones, ligaments, muscles, and energy systems, forcing adaptation. But not all of the stresses can be adapted to. Yes, the system adapts, bones become denser, muscle fibers increase in size, density, and efficienciy, but tendons wear grooves in bone, cartilage wears over time. People that weigh more have more cartilage wear in their hips and knees than people who are lighter. Why? Because of increased stress on the system over time.

Everybody has to make their own decision as to what kind of tradeoff they are willing to accept. And if it was something as simple as "Do this (Squat with a Barbell) and this will happen (You will not be able to pick up a can of Campbell's soup without pain by the time you are 50)" it would be easy. But it's not. There are too many variables to control for.

I think Bill's work is about eliminating as many variables as possible. Is it "safer"? Hell if I know. I know life is unpredictable, I train so I can live life to the fullest. I'm not going to be able to strap myself into a lifting belt or get perfectly set every time I need to lift or move something in life. I try to train to reflect that. But I also know life isn't a safe place. I just want to be able to live it to its fullest for as long as I can. And I think this discussion is helping me formulate at least a better understanding of the potential tradeoffs I make with my training.


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:15 am 
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BillDeSimone wrote:
You didn't read Moment Arm Exercise, Congruent Exercise, I don't know that you watched the videos, yet you have no problem summarizing the work and reading my mind. Just so everyone else knows, you're criticising your interpretation, not the work itself. Yes, the discussion is no longer constructive, so we agree on that. For anyone interested in the actual material, pages ago I put links up, and I may put a separate post on the board, so not to interfere with the original squat discussion.


I haven't read Moment Arm Exercise or Congruent Exercise. At first it was my age, then it was bio mechanics, and now I haven't read your book. I watched the 90 minute video, watched the Congruent preview vid, bicep curl (both parts), chin up, a general personal training one, and I think that's it. It's very easy to watch because you are a great presenter, and I enjoyed it. Also joined your FB page, so i'm now a fan, too. From what I can gather about the training methods, that's a whole other discussion but, I'm not on board with what I see so far and nothing has peaked my interest. It seems, so far -not that i want to attempt to read your mind again- that it's largely based on the biomechanics of isolated joint motion but, again, misses the bigger picture - Integrated movement. I keep bringing this up because whilst you focus on one specific joint, i'm wondering about how all the other joints in the body are affecting the one you are discussing, because they do have quite a significant effect. If your hips, ankles, and shoulders are all locked up (restricted motion), then your lumbar spine will pay the price when you "move". Not whilst doing slow, limited ROM leg presses, but when you pick things up off the floor, or put things on a high shelf. Or sit down/stand up. This has been my point all along, and it's continuously brushed aside. I'm not interested in isolation training, largely machine based at that, I want to help people to move better because when you move better, you live better.

As far as "reading your mind" - you provided a lot of material, I AM one of those interested and I am one of those who have taken the time to go through the majority of the available material. This gave me a lot of questions which I have raised, you've not done a lot, to be honest, to provide any insight, short of being told to read your book (or that i'll realise when i'm older). Most of my assumptions were directly asking for clarification, which i didn't get. Nothing I have assumed has been corrected, and i'm more than willing to stand corrected.

It's tempting to pick up your book just now but, I currently have 2 training related books on the go, 2 I haven't even picked up, an already long wish list on Amazon, various blog posts and articles in my "to read" list, and several seminars/webinars on my laptop to watch. I'm generally always in this position in terms of things I want to read or learn about. It's a consistent problem. So I need a good reason to bump a new one up the list. Maybe if Jungledoc reads it he'll recommend that I do, too.

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:28 am 
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Usually my reading list depends on what shows up at my library. I have recommended books in the past but it's usually a 6 month lag between publication and it winding up in my hands. Bill, none of your books are in my local library yet but I will recommend that they acquire them.

On a related note, I'm currently reading about Vitamin K2. I'll post a review in the book section later but K2 could mitigate some joint and bone damage caused by life and lifting.

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Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:47 am 
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Khronos8 - it depends how you are training and why you are doing it.

I've gave my thoughts on "damage" vs "pain". It's not as clear cut as "i have a disc bulge, therefore I have back pain". Again, what puts us in pain? Is it structural damage, or is it something else? Crappy movement, perhaps? Movement dysfunction almost always precedes pain.

So, what are you training for, anyway?

It could be that back squats just aren't a good choice for you right now even if they do fit your goals. You said at the beginning of this that you recorded yourself and were shocked at your form because your pelvis tucked/lower back flexed. There's an example of the dysfunction i'm talking about. If you have this going on then, to be frank, you are strengthening an already compromised movement system and you will only ever get to a certain level of strength before the smoke alarm goes off (pain)....

Also, statistically, you probably already have structural damage, and I probably do too. I know I do in other joints.

You need to be able to measure YOUR risk. Movement is measurable. Only then can you accurately assess the risk of your training program and exercises with in it. Not only that, but you can continue to measure the risk. If your squat pattern is off, then you are already high risk to load that pattern. If you have thoracic spine and shoulder restrictions, then you're at even greater risk. The upper body issues would make a back squats a "no" for me instantly - this is just an example.

How are we measuring risk with the Congruent method? Other than throwing the baby out with the bath water. There's a lot of talk about risk of injury but I have seen no mention of actually quantifying the risk, other than writing off free weights and Full ROM exercises as "inevitable risk" when, lets not forget, your risk of injury to the lower back is almost "inevitable" anyway, regarldless of whether you squat, leg press, or compete in water aerobics. Then when it happens, Bill can say, "see, you should of stopped squatting when I told you". It would of happened anyway.

Don't out perform your capacity to move and you will minimise potential for injury.

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:48 am 
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KPj: Here's a brief comment on relying on "movements" to train...if there's a weak point, the body works around it by shifting the load. So if I have flat feet, running barefoot doesn't correct it, it just causes issues elsewhere. If I have chronic shoulder pain, I can try handstand pushups, or I can do something specific for the rotator cuff. Yes, it's a brief comment, and yes, I address it with a few more paragraphs in CE. I'm not the guy to go to if you want a "movement" as the fix. And yes, I'll bring up the age thing again: I see clients that are so locked up in certain joints, I could frustrate them by insisting we work on that, so we can do the magic exercise, or I can address it other ways.

I really don't know how to answer everything you throw into a single post. Maybe you'd get some of that reading done if you posted briefer;)


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:53 am 
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Khronos8 wrote:
Been reading this thread with very serious interest ever since it got really interesting :smile: . The thought that sort of crystalizes my initial question and quest for help is this one from Bill.

BillDeSimone wrote:
If you don't get hurt doing them, you are exceptional, or it hasn't caught up to you yet, because it is cumulative.


Aging damage is, by definition, cumulative. I want to be strong now and into the foreseeable future without also doing something (engaging in activities) that will impact me negatively later in life. I want to move well when I'm 50, 60, 70.

While engaging in this squat conversation you've all actually touched on the fundamental question I've been asking myself for some time: "Are the things I'm doing now to be healthy going to bite me in the ass in 10, 15, 20 years?" Is it worth pushing myself to deadlift 600lbs now if I can't walk upright when I'm 60? I've had lower back pain, and it has stopped me from being able to engage in the activities I would like to participate in. I don't want to do something now that will make that a way of life for me later. I've never had shoulder pain but have some idea what it does to your activity level when you can't raise your arms above your head. Same with knee or hip issues.

I dont think there's anybody that can say there is no "wearing", or cumulative damage effect, that results from exercise. Life itself causes it. Simple thermodynamics demand that entropy and disorder increase. Training is based on the idea of putting stress on the system, forcing it to adapt. To repair the damage caused by the training activity. The real question is what is the tradeoff I'm making? I am stressing my joints, bones, ligaments, muscles, and energy systems, forcing adaptation. But not all of the stresses can be adapted to. Yes, the system adapts, bones become denser, muscle fibers increase in size, density, and efficienciy, but tendons wear grooves in bone, cartilage wears over time. People that weigh more have more cartilage wear in their hips and knees than people who are lighter. Why? Because of increased stress on the system over time.

Everybody has to make their own decision as to what kind of tradeoff they are willing to accept. And if it was something as simple as "Do this (Squat with a Barbell) and this will happen (You will not be able to pick up a can of Campbell's soup without pain by the time you are 50)" it would be easy. But it's not. There are too many variables to control for.

I think Bill's work is about eliminating as many variables as possible. Is it "safer"? Hell if I know. I know life is unpredictable, I train so I can live life to the fullest. I'm not going to be able to strap myself into a lifting belt or get perfectly set every time I need to lift or move something in life. I try to train to reflect that. But I also know life isn't a safe place. I just want to be able to live it to its fullest for as long as I can. And I think this discussion is helping me formulate at least a better understanding of the potential tradeoffs I make with my training.


And there you have it.


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:58 am 
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stuward wrote:
Usually my reading list depends on what shows up at my library. I have recommended books in the past but it's usually a 6 month lag between publication and it winding up in my hands. Bill, none of your books are in my local library yet but I will recommend that they acquire them.

On a related note, I'm currently reading about Vitamin K2. I'll post a review in the book section later but K2 could mitigate some joint and bone damage caused by life and lifting.


Don't know that they are "big" enough to be carried. There are excerpts on the Facebook page, and the Amazon page has the "look inside" feature. Congruent Exercise elaborates on the points in the long video, and includes suggested exercises not on the video.


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:08 am 
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BillDeSimone wrote:
KPj: Here's a brief comment on relying on "movements" to train...if there's a weak point, the body works around it by shifting the load.


Exactly - and there you have it! Find the compromised movement, regress it (so there is no compensation), progress it, fix it.

BillDeSimone wrote:
So if I have flat feet, running barefoot doesn't correct it, it just causes issues elsewhere.


Of course it does. Making someone with flat feet run barefoot is potentially one of the worse things you could have them do. However, a movement screen would reveal WHY they have flat feet, assuming it's not structural (which it rarely is).

BillDeSimone wrote:
I'm not the guy to go to if you want a "movement" as the fix. And yes, I'll bring up the age thing again: I see clients that are so locked up in certain joints, I could frustrate them by insisting we work on that, so we can do the magic exercise, or I can address it other ways.


I am, which is probably why won't find a middle ground. Also, of course some restrictions that have gathered over a life time may never resolve themselves. If you frustrate the client then I question your approach, since the client should always be able to actually do the exercises given to them, and this should be dictated by their movement capacity, and if a pattern is faulty, this would mean a bunch of exercises wouldn't be an option because they would be classed as "too risky". If I have someone who will prob never have the mobility to OH press, i'm not going to keep reminding them of that. I just um, won't program the OH press??? Why would that frustrate them. Of course I could put them in an OH machine, which is angled to the front, and feed the dysfunction of downward rotated scaps, but I digress.

BillDeSimone wrote:
I really don't know how to answer everything you throw into a single post. Maybe you'd get some of that reading done if you posted briefer;)


I'll throw up the age thing - I can type faster than I think, probably my youth :P

I don't often make the time to post quite as much as this, but the topic really peaked my interest. In fact I was typing up responses to this at 2-3am lastnight. So you are directly responsible for me drinking far too much caffeine today (which makes my posts longer).

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:13 am 
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Quote:
KPj wrote:
I'm actually not as strict about sciencitifc evidence as others are here. If something "just makes sense" to me, that's enough to give it a shot. I always quote nick tumminello saying, "if it doesn't make scientific sense, and it doesn't make common sense, it's nonsense". I think this is a great way of putting it. If something makes sense but has no science, then it's possible science just hasn't figured out a way to measure it or, never had anyone interested enough to care (as Jungledoc pointed out to me in previous post). Likewise, if something has plenty of science behind it and I don't see the logic, I assume I just have a poor understanding of it and would either learn more or try it. To go a step further if someone I really respect with far more experience than me says something that has no science behind it and i can't see the logic then I also assume I don't know enough to understand and will either learn more or try it (or both).


Kpj.....it's obvious that u've never seen poor training videos on the net...where gung ho trainees utilise horrible form in order to improve their squat numbers....I couldn't imagine that one individual could state ( and be honest ) that perfect form is used on each squat set. In that regard it's like cigarette smoking....there are those who will use bad form and never have an issue and those who suffer because their structure isn't robust enough. Just like cigarette smoking. there will be those who get cancer in their 30's...but also those who smoke lots but live without ailments well into later life. It's Russian roulette exercise in a sense...but being one of those Bill mentions as being receptive to his ideas due to the numerous aches and pains picked up over time, it's not a game I want to participate in. I'll take the route with less risk, because I still want to be lifting well into old age. Is that enough common sense?
KPj...for someone who states their relative inexperience, coming across as opinionated does not help the argument...as u stated Bill's approach is one of numerous out there....but it makes sense to me. If one wants to squat or has to because it's part of their sport, then go do it...but accept there are risks involved. There are no weight room or universal laws that declare it must be done however....


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:21 am 
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BillDeSimone wrote:
stuward wrote:
Usually my reading list depends on what shows up at my library. I have recommended books in the past but it's usually a 6 month lag between publication and it winding up in my hands. Bill, none of your books are in my local library yet but I will recommend that they acquire them.

On a related note, I'm currently reading about Vitamin K2. I'll post a review in the book section later but K2 could mitigate some joint and bone damage caused by life and lifting.


Don't know that they are "big" enough to be carried. There are excerpts on the Facebook page, and the Amazon page has the "look inside" feature. Congruent Exercise elaborates on the points in the long video, and includes suggested exercises not on the video.


I'll try anyway. I was able to get some Mike Boyle and Gray Cook books listed. If they think it's mainstream enough and doesn't cost a lot, they will often list them. I tried getting up to date versions of Supertraining by Siff and Verhoshansky listed but too expensive and too limited an audience.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:22 am 
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Stu, welcome to the board, and thanks for your opinion.

I have seen more than enough poor training videos, and I see more than enough bad technique every day in the gym. I see this on the leg press, too, but i'm assuming that doesn't count?

I won't argue that i'm opiniated - I am. I am very passionate about movement, and I am very passionate about strength training. Note strength training does not automatically mean, "back squats".

I'm also not a stranger to accepting I am wrong, if given good reason. I apologise if i've came across as harsh, i've actually spent a lot of time watching/reading Bills work, and I will state again - for possibly the third time - I am disagreeing, and I have given my reasons. I am not disliking - I "like", and I have given my reasons for that, too.

KPj

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