ExRx.net

Exercise Prescription on the Net
It is currently Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:30 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:19 pm 
Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:48 pm
Posts: 1347
Location: New York, USA
Anybody doing box squats regularly?

I've swapped them in this cycle and I have to say I like them. It is surprising how a small amount of weight is a serious workout. With a 1RM of 320 on squat about a month ago, sets of 5 at 175 are serious work to maintain form on the 5th rep.

There is some serious hype about box squats. In the end I'll have to see how I do after 3 weeks.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:24 am 
Offline
Veteren Member
Veteren Member

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:12 pm
Posts: 2406
theres a 190 lbs-ish man here doing them, you should hear from him in the next 12 hours I imagine


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:29 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Posts: 4358
Location: Pennsylvania
I tried doing box squats recently and it ended up being a major setback when I switched back to regular back squats. However in my case I stayed with box squats and front squats only for a lot longer than 3 weeks.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:43 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3474
I used to do them regularly and actually think I done them too much.

I was pretty obsessed with them because for the right person they work incredibly well. However right now they don't do much, but weak points/sticking points have changed.

Box Squats took my free squat from about 120kg to about 150-160kg. However, now my box squat and free squat are very similar, and that's with a pause. Again, though, it's an individual thing, i'm a weird case i.e. check my recent numbers

Squat - 160kg
Box Squat (PL depth) - 145kg (been several months now since I done them)
Close stance paused squat - 155kg
Bottom Up/dead squat - 160kg (I was just certain these would carryover brilliantly, but was wrong).

Basically I think what i've been trying to address isn't actually the problem. My sticking point is a few inches out of the hole. I think it might be an ab thing, however my form is pretty solid, even when I go to failure my weight doesn't fall forward, I just become unable to move the weight. For those who tend to pitch forward when the weight gets interesting, Box Squats work like magic. Nothing will teach you to squat with the hips/glutes/hammies/lower back and stay on the heels as well as a Box Squat will.

For the same reason, they're amazing for beginners. In an ideal world if I have an awful squatter, they will go - goblets to box - free goblet squats - front squats - box squats. THEN we free squat. I kick the box away and the first time they squat they normally lift a respectable weight with rock solid for from day one. One client couldn't b/w squat below parallel without tucking, went through this progression, and she back squatted 80KG first time doing the exercise. Box Squats teach squat form brilliantly, they teach you to stay tight in the hole, and they allow you to become comfortable in the hole. For people that tend to cut depth when things get tough (which I think is more mental than physical), Box Squats really work a treat, too.

It depends?

KPj

_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:56 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4283
Oscar_Actuary wrote:
theres a 190 lbs-ish man here doing them, you should hear from him in the next 12 hours I imagine


you rang?

I LOVE box squats. They really help with getting the power you need out of the hole. Box front squats are fast becoming my favourite exercise.

weirdly, there's not that much difference between my box front squat and my actual front squat...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:58 am 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1022
KenDowns wrote:
Anybody doing box squats regularly?

I've swapped them in this cycle and I have to say I like them. It is surprising how a small amount of weight is a serious workout. With a 1RM of 320 on squat about a month ago, sets of 5 at 175 are serious work to maintain form on the 5th rep.

There is some serious hype about box squats. In the end I'll have to see how I do after 3 weeks.


Box Squat Hype

It's more than hype.

Laws of Scienfitic Research

1) Reproducible Effect. You have to be able to reproduce the same results.

Box Squat go back to the early 1960s with the George Frenn and the Original Westside Powerlifters.

So, it has about a 60 year history of producing results, non-stop.

2) Law of Large Numbers

The greater the test sample, the more accurate the results.

Simmons' began pushing Box Squats in the early 1980s. Since then, it has expanded from Powerlifters into other areas: High Schools and Colleges, Pro Athletes, Cross Fit, etc.

Box Squatting has produces results for the masses that use it.

Three Different Box Squat

Simmons began touting Box Squat in the early 1980s.

The "Original Westside Box Squat" is different from Simmons.

According to Joe DeMarco (who was one of the inventors of the Box Squat method, along with Geroge Frenn), the difference in Simmons method and the "Original Westside Method" is due to Simmons lack of knowledge.

As per DeMarco, Simmons never visited nor spoke with any of the original Westside Powerlifters. Simmons ended up with bits and piece of information, not getting the whole picture.

With said, let take a look at Simmons method.

Simmons Westside Method

The Simmons method employs a pause on the box before ascending. Simmons touts this as breaking the eccentric-concentric movement.

Simmons erroneously states that the stretch reflex can last up to or longer than 4 seconds.

That is INCORRECT. Research has demonstrated that 50% of the stretch reflex is LOST in ONE SECOND. In 4 seconds, the stretch reflex is completely gone.

Isometric-Explosive Box Squat

Simmons method is based on developing power from a dead stop out of the hole. That means the strength and teaching the muscle fiber to "turn on" from a relaxed, paused postion it trained.

Law of Specificity

There is NO Pause in a competition squat. In a competition squat, you elicit the stretch reflex with a slight recoil out of the hole.

Simmons method does NOTHING to develop the stretch reflex.

Simmons method is an effective training tool. However, it in NO way develops the stretch reflex.

The "Original Westside Box Squat"

This method is what one might term a "Rocking Box Squat."

1) Sit back on the box.

2) As you push back on the box, lift your heels off the floor.

3) Rock forward to get up.

4) As you do, slam you heels into the floor.

Explosive Box Squat

The "Original Westside Box Squat" could be termed as an Explosive Box Squat. That because momentum is generated by rocking backward, then forward and lifting and then slamming your heel into the floor.

This momentum allows you to generate more force. In other words, you will use more weight.

Think of this method as throwing a shot. A Shot Putter generates more for before the throw by spinning or gliding into the throw.

That is exactly what you are doing with the "Original Westside Method".

Reactive-Explosive Box Squat

This is the only method of Box Squatting that develops the stretch reflex.

It is a Touch and Go Box Squat. You get a little recoil off the box.

Force = Mass X Acceleration

Along with eliciting the stretch reflex, additional resistance/force is created with by allowing increased eccentric acceleration in dropping down to the box.

This does two things.

1) Pre-Load the stretch reflex allowing you to produce more power coming out of the hole.

2) Increases the loading in the hole. In other word, the eccentric acceleration of the bar increases weight of the bar beyond what you have loaded on it...a greater overload in the hole postion of the squat is obtain.

With that in mind, some type of plyometric squat training NEEDS to be employed for powerlifter who want to squat the most they can at a meet.

Squatting To Be Explosive
http://www.liftinglarge.com/Squatting-t ... _53-1.html

This article goes more into plyometric Box Squatting methods.

Training Tool Method

Think of each of these method as a tool in your tool box.

Each has its place in one training.

Kenny Croxdale

_________________
Thanks TimD.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:50 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3474
I don't think Louie Simmons has made any secret of where his methods have came from. I'm sure in a few articles you can get on the net he says it's a mixture of what he was told and read from the original westside barbell, who he credits for a lot of the "special exercises" he uses, and the soviets system of wave loading.

Also, in the old westside videos they do the rocking box squats. Some of them do, anyway.

Wanting to rock on the box actually comes naturally. I've always seen it as a fault in the lift and stop people from doing it when their bodies inevitably figure out that they can move the weight easier that way. I don't think you should try and train the stretch reflex via Box Squatting, i think it's a poor choice. And I think rocking on the box is a dangerous choice.

I've always seen Box Squats a la simmons as the opposite, always thought half the point was to take away the advantage of the stretch reflex. In a similar way that floor pressing takes away the advantage of leg drive - we want it (stretch reflex, leg drive on bench), we want to make it better, but sometimes we want to work on other qualities (in this case, exploding from a dead stop), which often involves reducing or disabling similar qualities (in this case, the stretch reflex).

In other words I think if you're trying to work on your stretch reflex, then Box Squatting is a poor choice.

I have one client who Box Squats always work for and I think this is where things "depend". This boy has some amazing rebound out of the hole, so much "spring", without bouncing off the calves. I think he naturally makes amazing use of the stretch reflex. I have never coached him on getting the right speed on the eccentric or getting a quick, sharp bar reversal. He just has it naturally.

If you I take this away (with Box Squats), it calls him out. Get some gains on box squats and it always carries over. I suspect spending a lot of time of jumps and other plyo's wouldn't work too well for him, although not tried so far.

I think people who are naturally stiffer, more "blocky", slower, and muscle things up more will need to worry about the stretch reflex more.

Also, another often overlooked point about Box Squats, atleast how Simmons wants them done, is the vertical shin. It takes a while to develop this even with very little weight. It almost turns the exercise into a deadlift! There is an argument to say Box Squats done this way will carryover to your deadlift more than your squat.

KPj

_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:32 pm 
Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:48 pm
Posts: 1347
Location: New York, USA
KPj wrote:
For those who tend to pitch forward when the weight gets interesting, Box Squats work like magic.


This is what I'm looking for. I will still go very sloppy and pitched on at least one rep of a 4-5 rep set, and I want to bring that down to one out of 100. We use the safety bar for box squats in my gym generally, which projects the weight out forward of you, so you absolutely must be thinking "chest up" or it doesn't work. You either do a good morning or a squat, but you can't fool yourself with something in between.

Kenny, it's hard for me to tie my experience to the information you provide. I don't know much about Simmons vs original Westside, but I was taught to keep my back tight but let my legs go loose, to deliberately abandon the stretch reflex and gain power coming from a dead stop.

What I am confident of, in decreasing order, is that it gives much needed practice in form (see previous paragraph), carries some to deadlift because of dead stop feel, and supposedly adds to what you can do if you already know how to make use of the stretch reflex.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:24 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 8:43 am
Posts: 5247
Location: New Jersey
I did them a lot when I was lifting at DeFranco's. They really helped me learn to stay tight, to get consistent depth, and to learn to selectively relax, while getting me stronger. I wasn't doing them to improve my back squat, so I can't say how they did or didn't do that. I use box-based squats all the time now to teach people to squat.

_________________
--
Peter V. Dell'Orto
http://strength-basics.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:49 am 
Offline
Veteren Member
Veteren Member

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:12 pm
Posts: 2406
this cant be useless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbCaLZ8a0cw

mos def I'll keep these in mind


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:31 am 
Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:40 pm
Posts: 1115
Location: Lapland, Finland
Also the whole So you think you can Squat series on youtube is great for any technique aspect.

I have been thinking I would add Box front squats to my next program, atleast for 4-12 weeks. Seeing how that feels and how I can get the box to use. I've done box back squats before, and those were very interesting always. We'll see.

_________________
Physical Preparedness Coach
Co-Owner of UniFit Oy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:05 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3474
Oscar_Actuary wrote:
this cant be useless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbCaLZ8a0cw

mos def I'll keep these in mind


This one's a little more um, informative?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HqB9PHNNi8

You're welcome.

KPj

_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:22 am 
Offline
Veteren Member
Veteren Member

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:12 pm
Posts: 2406
porn for gym rats. you juveniles.

It's like when Leigh starts talking about accumulated surplus, I get all... like ... "say it again, but this time, slower, and with standard deviation."


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 


All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group