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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:56 am 
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To be honest, I love the deadlift. I think it's the best exercise a man can do.
But, I'm seriously interested. So Kenny C. How would this go for a No-deadlift workout:

Weeks 1-3:
1-3 reps for 3-4 work sets Power Cleans
3RM-5RM Good Mornings.
Accesorial exercises (Like glute, quad or core work)

Week 4:
Deadlift singles.
Assisting work

On some other day, I'd have front squats. I migth seriously try this out to understand what you are saying.

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Last edited by Dub on Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:03 am 
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Kenny, thank you so much for all this information.

Could you clarify something for me please? How would I integrate goodmornings and power cleans into my routine? Currently I train squat on Monday, and Deadlift on Friday. Would it be as simple as putting the power cleans and goodmorings on Friday? And which order would I perform them in? Cleans first then GMs? I'm assuming they are done on the same day...

Thanks again for all this information. While I'm sure you can understand my skepticism, I'm certainly going to try this method :grin:

(Do you know of a place where I could purchase the "Bench Press More Now" book? I was unable to locate it online. It appears to be out of print.)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:35 am 
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Kenny, I squat on M/F and dead on W. After readingn your post, I have some hands-on questions.

Intensity/Frequency
My 5x5 program started with a bare bar and increases 5lb each time. At what point what you said will apply to me? I'm specifically talking about your comments like (loose citations): "you must deload"; "it is disastrous to squat and/or dead on same week"; "murder of CNS"; "become weak and small"...

Application
When?
- How can I--a beginner--find that particular weight? Is there a percentage of body weight that you can recommend when things need to change?

How?
- How do I "deload to allow recovery" and then build back up? Would I jump in 10lb increments? Do I change the set scheme when I deload? (say reduce weight by 30% and do 3x8 instead of 5x5)

Program
- Is it safe to say that I shouldn't worry about squatting twice a week anytime soon? I'm assuming a complete program change only comes into play at very serious weight. Here again, is there a % of BW I can use to apply in practice?


Thank you! Linear progression is so tempting, so I'm glad to have read this and want to try avoiding the pitfalls you mentioned.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:41 pm 
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b-marz wrote:
Kenny, thank you so much for all this information.

Could you clarify something for me please? How would I integrate goodmornings and power cleans into my routine? Currently I train squat on Monday, and Deadlift on Friday. Would it be as simple as putting the power cleans and goodmorings on Friday?


Good Mornings and Power Clean on the same day work.

Quote:
And which order would I perform them in? Cleans first then GMs? I'm assuming they are done on the same day...


You want to peform power and speed movements before strength movements. That means, Cleans first this Good Mornings.

Quote:
Thanks again for all this information. While I'm sure you can understand my skepticism, I'm certainly going to try this method :grin:


I was very skeptical at first. So, I understand.

Quote:
(Do you know of a place where I could purchase the "Bench Press More Now" book? I was unable to locate it online. It appears to be out of print.)


I understand it is out of print. However, I believe I have one of McLaughlin's research articles on it.

Send me you email and I will find send it to you.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Dub wrote:
To be honest, I love the deadlift. I think it's the best exercise a man can do.
But, I'm seriously interested. So Kenny C. How would this go for a No-deadlift workout:

Weeks 1-3:
1-3 reps for 3-4 work sets Power Cleans
3RM-5RM Good Mornings.
Accesorial exercises (Like glute, quad or core work)

Week 4:
Deadlift singles.
Assisting work

On some other day, I'd have front squats. I migth seriously try this out to understand what you are saying.


What you got looks good. There are a varity of way of writing the program.

Give yours a try and see how it works.

Kenny Croxdale

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Thanks TimD.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Quote:
emil3m wrote:
Kenny, I squat on M/F and dead on W. After readingn your post, I have some hands-on questions.

Intensity/Frequency
My 5x5 program started with a bare bar and increases 5lb each time. At what point what you said will apply to me? I'm specifically talking about your comments like (loose citations): "you must deload"; "it is disastrous to squat and/or dead on same week"; "murder of CNS"; "become weak and small"...


Those comments are apply to intermediate and advance lifters. Just about anything works for novice lifters. I should have specified that.

So, it depends on what catagory you are in.


Quote:
Application
When?
- How can I--a beginner--find that particular weight? Is there a percentage of body weight that you can recommend when things need to change?


It is a guessing game. The best thing to do is begin with a fairly light load and then move up. That applies to everyone prforming a new movement.

Quote:
How?
- How do I "deload to allow recovery" and then build back up? Would I jump in 10lb increments? Do I change the set scheme when I deload? (say reduce weight by 30% and do 3x8 instead of 5x5)


What you want to do is decrease the intensity to allow the body to recovery.

You can change the exercises, change your sets, reps, rest periods...just change something and be sure that you first week is something easy.


Quote:
Program
- Is it safe to say that I shouldn't worry about squatting twice a week anytime soon? I'm assuming a complete program change only comes into play at very serious weight. Here again, is there a % of BW I can use to apply in practice?


The key is recovery. Thus, many program have a Light, Moderate and Heavy Day during the week.

The reason is that you want to use the Light and Moderate Days for recovery. However, if they don't allow you recovery to occur, then you need to back up.

Programming invoves numbers but it also involves listening to your body and learning when to push and back off. So, training is part science and part art.


Quote:
Thank you! Linear progression is so tempting, so I'm glad to have read this and want to try avoiding the pitfalls you mentioned.


If Linear work for you and you like it, then do it. However, I am more of a Non-Linear proponent.

Kenny Croxdale

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Thanks TimD.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:18 pm 
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Crystal clear, Kenny! Thanks.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
The key is recovery. Thus, many program have a Light, Moderate and Heavy Day during the week.


Should set/rep structure vary as well?
Light 3x12, moderate 3x8, heavy 3x5

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:31 am 
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Kenny, i can't send PMs yet... don't know how long it takes before I have access to that feature, or if i have to post a certain number of times, but I'll PM you with my email as soon as I can.

Thanks again for your input!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:37 pm 
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I think you can PM me since I'm a mod, and I can relay the email to Kenny. Or maybe Kenny can PM you, then you would be able to answer. I'm not sure what Ironman has set to be able to PM, but I don't think it's much more than where you are, so maybe try it again.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:37 am 
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b-marz wrote:
Kenny, i can't send PMs yet... don't know how long it takes before I have access to that feature, or if i have to post a certain number of times, but I'll PM you with my email as soon as I can.

Thanks again for your input!


I removed you from the "newly registered" group. So you will be able to PM now.


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:49 am 
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Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:57 am 
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I'm very aware that I'm raising a very old thread. But it's on purpose. Because I did try the No deadlift program. I ran with it for 16 weeks with this kind of protocol:

Quote:
Weeks 1-3:
1-3 reps for 3-4 work sets Power Cleans
3RM-5RM Good Mornings.
Accesorial exercises (Like glute, quad or core work)

Week 4:
Deadlift singles.
Assisting work


After 16 weeks I did a couple of weeks altering dynamic deadlifts and max effort deadlifts (mostly sumo, some conventional).

Now, I love to deadlift, which is why I didn't like the program. But I was interested to see what happens if I only DL once a month. After the no-deadlift program was over, I tested my conventional DL 1RM. It was 165kg. My previous PR from may was 170kg. Boy, was I dissapointed. The program didn't work one bit. Or so I thought.

In may my Sumo Deadlift 1RM was 155kg. Last month, I lifted 170kg. Without a problem. Today I got 180kg. My conventional was 175kg. A 5k Improvement from the summer. Granted, I did a couple of weeks of deadlifts after that, but still.

So I'm really puzzled here. I doubt that the measly 3-4 max effort sumo days and 3-4 dynamic sumo days I had before these new maxes really did the work. I'm thinking that the no-deadlift program improved my hip strength and explosiveness by huge amounts, which gave me the opportunity to improve my Sumo DL. Maybe my conventional DL was more about my back strength than my hips, which didn't quite improve with the olympic lifts or good mornings.

Oh, and this was done with a BW of 80kg.

In conclusion, Kenny C, I quess I owe you some thanks. Your program model improved my sumo deadlift by 25kg.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:41 pm 
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Lately, I've been doing a lot of Good Mornings and Barbell Rack Pulls, and only deadlifting about once a month. It's too soon to say for sure, but it seems to be working.

Previously, I did something similar with Romanian Deadlifts and Barbell Holds (for grip).

PS) My program also includes heavy Bent-over Rows (45-degree barbell) and Barbell High Pulls.


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