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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:04 pm 
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Great post.

I'm still thinking some of this through, but I reacted at several point something like this:
b-marz wrote:
Well, for instance, if your disadvantaged in the squat then goodmornings, glute-ham-raises, and sumo deadlifts can be great at building up the squat.

"Well, even if you're NOT disadvantaged in the squat, GMs GHRs and sumos will still be great at building up your squat".

Also, I'm thinking that the importance of this will differ by whether you compete, or are lifting for general strength, etc. I don't compete. I do want my squat to go up, but I don't care if it a relatively low weight. As long as I'm improving, I'm happy (and of course I'm not very happy at the moment). And even if my DL is my better lift, I still want to improve it as well. So, do I, a non-competing strength trainer need to take body proportions into account in any way? Why can't I and my friend who squats what I DL and DLs what I squat train pretty much the same way, and both make progress?

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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:19 pm 
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b-marz wrote:
robertscott wrote:
because there's nothing you can do to change it so it's not worth considering.


Come again? Understanding your unique leverages is key to maximizing your performance in a lift. Ignoring it because you can't change it is as foolish as ignoring your adaptive response and recovery propensities...


same lifts benefit everybody. Some people are built for squatting, others for deadlifting, but we all benefit from the same lifts. You are overthinking.

I'm scared now that all this time I've been ignoring my adaptive responses and recovery propensities.


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Some people can just squat, and make great gains, so adding other exercises won't make them gain any faster or any more. They can still use the alternatives as a form of periodization if they so desired, but generally, assistance exercises are for improving stubborn lifts. If the lift is growing by practicing it, why change or add extra stress to recover from?

Obviously this isn't going to be most people, so a lot of people will need some assistance with most lifts at some point. Newbies however should stick with the basic lifts for at least a year for proficiencies sake.

The only difference between training to compete and training for well being is the end goal, all other things remain equal and hold true. It's just picking the exercises that move you closer to your goals.

Great example: I love the press. I'm not very good at it (I can press my weight on a good day), but I love it none the less, and work into my routine for two reasons a) i love it, and b) it helps keep my shoulders balanced from bench pressing. I do dips as assistance for the press. I don't need the press technically speaking, but it's my pet lift and I've chosen an assistance exercise for it that is helping it climb up more steadily than it has in the past.

The purpose of assistance exercises are not strictly for competition, they are for achieving a desired goal as efficiently as possible, regardless of the goal in mind. Does that make more sense?


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:46 pm 
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robertscott wrote:

same lifts benefit everybody. Some people are built for squatting, others for deadlifting, but we all benefit from the same lifts. You are overthinking.

I'm scared now that all this time I've been ignoring my adaptive responses and recovery propensities.


Not all lifts benefit all people equally, and every body type uses a slightly different form for each lift. Each lift's form can also be modified for specific goals. Not all people recover at the same rate, or tolerate the same stress levels. This must all be taken into consideration when striving for the fastest possible strength gains in a specific movement pattern. I don't understand why you mock this, it's basic principles of lifting.


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:02 pm 
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b-marz wrote:
robertscott wrote:

same lifts benefit everybody. Some people are built for squatting, others for deadlifting, but we all benefit from the same lifts. You are overthinking.

I'm scared now that all this time I've been ignoring my adaptive responses and recovery propensities.


Not all lifts benefit all people equally, and every body type uses a slightly different form for each lift. Each lift's form can also be modified for specific goals. Not all people recover at the same rate, or tolerate the same stress levels. This must all be taken into consideration when striving for the fastest possible strength gains in a specific movement pattern. I don't understand why you mock this, it's basic principles of lifting.


I'm just saying I don't agree that it's as important as you think it is. While some people get more benefit than others from certain lifts, everyone benefits from the same ones to a degree, so we might as well all rotate the same ones in at some point.


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 4:21 am 
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Good thread.

I have the same body type, btw. Always struggle with squats. I've hit a few barriers with deadlift before but I feel comfortable that I can keep it moving just now.

When my squat goes up my DL goes up (but, again, not vice-versa). When you're in this position it makes sense to dedicate more of your training time to building the squat. I think natural conventional deadlifters are always back-dominant. b-marz mentioned he good mornings more than he squats - good example. Also, recently I made a good effort to increase good morning strength and got no carryover to my squat. However, my technique needed/needs some work so I may not of tapped into the carryover from good mornings yet (or they just don't benefit me, time will tell). Strengthen the squat, you almost always strengthen the legs which in turn strengthens your weak link in the deadlift.

I think the benefit to your deadlift comes from focusing more on your weak link than it does from NOT deadlifting, though. So, I agree that no deadlift deadlift training can be the best thing for some people, but not because you can't recover from it, because you need to get at those hips and legs to improve it, and when you conventional pull you're feeding the dominance of the back, rather than working on the weakness of the hips and legs.

You can train a lift or build a lift. I like both. Some great gyms do one, some great gyms do the other. You'll find as many legendary or world class powerlifters who take either approach. Some of the best powerlifters of all time just stick to the basics and use basic linear progression. Point is there's loads of ways to do it and most of them work if you give it a fair shot. Sometimes I think the change rather than the method is what sparks progress but, it's hard to ever really know for sure.

Back to the recovery issue with deadlifts. Westside are often used as an example of lifters who don't train heavy deadlifts directly (from what i understand, there's no one size fits all westside program, it's individual, but with similar principles for each lifter).

Westside technically "build" all of the lifts (btw, I love westside barbell, but this may sound like criticism - it's not, it's just observations). They barely even free squat or do competition bench with straight bars and straight weight, when they do it tends to be for speed. They mostly Box Squat. The Box Squat, when done correctly, is in my mind just a deficit sumo deadlift with a bar on your back. It's kind of like a good morning in the sense that you never really know what lift it builds the most - squat or deadlift? Anyway, the shin angle of a box squat makes it very hip dominant. The pause echoes a the dead stop in a deadlift. So, I think you "eat into" your deadlift training if you smash box squats.

Also, worth noting that westside are a lot more known for their squatters (and benches) than deadlifters. This could easily be coincidence but for me, it's no surprise that the lift they have most success in is the one that's trained the most. I'm sure there was an article in the last year or 2 where Louie claimed they were deadlifting more now.

Now, you can't smash squat AND bench AND deadlift with everything you've got all at the same time. You can as a beginner but the stronger you get the more recovery becomes an issue and you need to start juggling the lifts.

I don't agree you can't recover from training the deadlift specifically. I think it needs programmed properly and performed properly. I know too many big deadlifters who just squat bench and deadlift every week. I'm actually getting the chance to train with a powerlifter who came 13th in his class at the IPF worlds. Squats, benches, and deadlifts every week (they use linear progression, too). His coach who will be there and has coached powerlifters for decades has won something like 5 worlds competitions.

One issue as I see it with deadlift training is simply that it's a lot less forgiving. You can allow a deadlift to get VERY messy and still make the rep. If you break down like that in a squat you will miss the lift. What happens in a squat when your back rounds or your hips shoot up before the shoulders? You're pretty much screwed if you're close to or above 1RM. In deadlift, though, you can just keep banging out reps.

A neutral spine deadlift is far easier to recover from than a rounded back deadlift. A neutral spine deadlift actually "builds" a rounded back deadlift but the opposite isn't true. You always have 20-ish KG on "reserve" if you let yourself round over due to the leverage advantage. So you can build your competition-rounded-back-deadlift by training a neutral spine deadlift and straight away you make it much easier to recover from. Main problem with this is ego.

Another ego problem is testing vs training. I think people test lifts far too often. Even once a month in my opinion is way too much. "Train" the lift in the gym but, "test" it either in a scheduled test day or on the platform. Testing doesn't make you stronger it just marks your progress or lack there of. How many lifters let their ego get the better of them and test practically every week? And they let technique get messy, AND they're smashing squats and bench on other training days in the week.

And how do we program sets/reps? Right now I train 4 deadlift variations every week, for example. Conventional, sumo, and suitcase deadlifts on the same day. Single leg deadlifts on another day. On squat day we squat and front squat, too. Bench day has bench then incline bench. Technically i'm training 2 variations of the big lifts every week, plus assistance exercises.

I'm not arguing against no-deadlift-deadlift-training. I think it's definitely worth trying and I think in this case it'll work. I'm just debating/thinking out loud regarding the reasons for it working.

KPj

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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:44 am 
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KPj wrote:
Also, recently I made a good effort to increase good morning strength and got no carryover to my squat. However, my technique needed/needs some work so I may not of tapped into the carryover from good mornings yet (or they just don't benefit me, time will tell).

Are you aware there are at least three major variations of the goodmorning? I wasn't when I first started doing them. I do neutral back goodmornings which are supposed to have excelent carry over to the squat. Westsiders and Bill Star practice rounded back goodmornings, as well as what they call arched back goodmornings, which are kinda like a quarter or half version of a neutral back goodmorning.

I know that guys swear by the round back goodmornings, but I just can't get myself to do it. It doesn't feel right, and I'm concerned for my back health.

KPj wrote:
Strengthen the squat, you almost always strengthen the legs which in turn strengthens your weak link in the deadlift.

That's a great point, I never thought of it that way, but it makes total sense now that you mention it.

KPj wrote:
You can train a lift or build a lift. I like both. Some great gyms do one, some great gyms do the other. You'll find as many legendary or world class powerlifters who take either approach. Some of the best powerlifters of all time just stick to the basics and use basic linear progression. Point is there's loads of ways to do it and most of them work if you give it a fair shot. Sometimes I think the change rather than the method is what sparks progress but, it's hard to ever really know for sure.

Yes, there is no majic routine. When one stops working switch to another, if what your doing is working, don't change it. I'm still not totaly convinced of this no deadlift training, but I'm giving it a try it because if it works for me, I've found a plateau buster, if it doesn't, well I know one routine to avoid.


KPj wrote:
Back to the recovery issue with deadlifts. Westside are often used as an example of lifters who don't train heavy deadlifts directly (from what i understand, there's no one size fits all westside program, it's individual, but with similar principles for each lifter).

Westside technically "build" all of the lifts (btw, I love westside barbell, but this may sound like criticism - it's not, it's just observations). They barely even free squat or do competition bench with straight bars and straight weight, when they do it tends to be for speed. They mostly Box Squat. The Box Squat, when done correctly, is in my mind just a deficit sumo deadlift with a bar on your back. It's kind of like a good morning in the sense that you never really know what lift it builds the most - squat or deadlift? Anyway, the shin angle of a box squat makes it very hip dominant. The pause echoes a the dead stop in a deadlift. So, I think you "eat into" your deadlift training if you smash box squats.

Also, worth noting that westside are a lot more known for their squatters (and benches) than deadlifters. This could easily be coincidence but for me, it's no surprise that the lift they have most success in is the one that's trained the most. I'm sure there was an article in the last year or 2 where Louie claimed they were deadlifting more now.


The thing to keep in mind with Westside is that their training is geared towards, well, gear. This is not to say that their pattern of training won't work for general fitness, it worked for me for a while, but I substituted pause squats for box squats, and didn't use any chains or bands, as those are specifically for training geared lifters.

But as with all of this, your mileage may vary. I don't' know any one who uses westside that doesn't compete in gear, but that doesn't mean that there aren't those out there using it with great success.

KPj wrote:
Now, you can't smash squat AND bench AND deadlift with everything you've got all at the same time. You can as a beginner but the stronger you get the more recovery becomes an issue and you need to start juggling the lifts.

Yes, the practice in the gym must be in the 80-90% range to avoid burning out.

KPj wrote:
I don't agree you can't recover from training the deadlift specifically. I think it needs programmed properly and performed properly. I know too many big deadlifters who just squat bench and deadlift every week. I'm actually getting the chance to train with a powerlifter who came 13th in his class at the IPF worlds. Squats, benches, and deadlifts every week (they use linear progression, too). His coach who will be there and has coached powerlifters for decades has won something like 5 worlds competitions.

One issue as I see it with deadlift training is simply that it's a lot less forgiving. You can allow a deadlift to get VERY messy and still make the rep. If you break down like that in a squat you will miss the lift. What happens in a squat when your back rounds or your hips shoot up before the shoulders? You're pretty much screwed if you're close to or above 1RM. In deadlift, though, you can just keep banging out reps.

A neutral spine deadlift is far easier to recover from than a rounded back deadlift. A neutral spine deadlift actually "builds" a rounded back deadlift but the opposite isn't true. You always have 20-ish KG on "reserve" if you let yourself round over due to the leverage advantage. So you can build your competition-rounded-back-deadlift by training a neutral spine deadlift and straight away you make it much easier to recover from. Main problem with this is ego.

Another ego problem is testing vs training. I think people test lifts far too often. Even once a month in my opinion is way too much. "Train" the lift in the gym but, "test" it either in a scheduled test day or on the platform. Testing doesn't make you stronger it just marks your progress or lack there of. How many lifters let their ego get the better of them and test practically every week? And they let technique get messy, AND they're smashing squats and bench on other training days in the week.

Absolutely, I've only been training with weights for 4 years, going on 5, and really only could claim to know what I'm doing for about the last two years. Even then, I effectively tested my strength at the end of every cycle. Knowing what I know now, I'm amazed how much progress I made with this.

KPj wrote:
And how do we program sets/reps? Right now I train 4 deadlift variations every week, for example. Conventional, sumo, and suitcase deadlifts on the same day. Single leg deadlifts on another day. On squat day we squat and front squat, too. Bench day has bench then incline bench. Technically i'm training 2 variations of the big lifts every week, plus assistance exercises.

Right now I'm alternating squat one week, goodmornings the next on mondays. These come after bench and pullups, in the same workout. All for 6 sets of 3, or as close to that as I can get. When I accomplish 6 sets of 3 reps, with good form, and not going to failure on any set, I up the weight. Friday I do the same with Press, was doing it with deadlifts, but now with powercleans, and dips. Wednesday is isometrics. I credit Isometrics for making up for a lot of my training sins. I use isometrics to hit the squat and bench in bottom, middle, and lockout, and the deadlift just above the knees. I also hold as much weight as I can in my hands from the rack as if I was going to press it. I call these Rack Holds. I used to not be able to breath after cleaning a weight to my chest. This fixed that quick. Now my shoulders, chest and back hardly notice the weight when I clean it since my Rack Holds are dang near 100lbs over my clean weight.

KPj wrote:
I'm not arguing against no-deadlift-deadlift-training. I think it's definitely worth trying and I think in this case it'll work. I'm just debating/thinking out loud regarding the reasons for it working.

A year ago I would have thought this was utter bunk and skipped past it. Now I'm smart enough to know when I see something that might work for me. I'll definitely keep this forum posted on my opinion of how this training works for me. Time will tell if this works for me, and just because it works for me doesn't mean it will work for some one else, it only means that it could work, and if your stuck, might be worth trying.


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 6:32 am 
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Hey guys, figured I'd start a separate thread for this topic so it would be easier to track.

Nothing too extraordinary to tell about, but power cleans hit my upper back and traps like nothing I've ever done before, which I imagine is a great thing. Squats are sooooo much more enjoyable, I don't feel like I'm struggling with them anymore, dare I say they feel easy and I've upped the weight two weeks in a row, and am planning on trying +10lbs next Monday again because this week went off so smoothly.

I looked at my records, seams my squat has always been about 75% of my deadlift, but I've moved that to 80% to be more conservative since my squat is growing without the impedance of the deadlift stress. Figure better to make the lift, and add more weight for the third try in comp than to miss the second lift.

I'll keep posting anything else of significance I notice in this thread, up to the Powerlifting meet on June 8th, and maybe a month or two afterword just for continuities sake.

For the record, i squatted 6 sets of 3 with 275lb Monday. :cheers:


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:11 pm 
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I think it would have been better to post this in the previous thread, since it is really a continuation of the discussion there. I'll move it if you want me to.

Great to hear that this had been a good change for you.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:46 pm 
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that's fine with me, maybe it's easier to follow all in one long thread for future reference


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:12 pm 
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like a journal

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 1:26 pm 
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What is the approximate ratio that ones power clean has to ones deadlift? I know, yes it's different for different people, but in general is it around 50% of ones deadlift, or should it be closer to 60% or 70% of deadlift? I just don't want to over estimate my deadlift for the meet coming up in 3 weeks. Thus far i'm up to a working weight of 195lb for 6 sets of 3 reps. This friday I'm going to try for 205lb, and if I can get all the sets, next friday go for 215lb. I've been assuming it's about 50% of deadlift, which means if I can do power cleans for 6 sets of 3 reps with 215lb, I'm assuming I could do the same sets/reps with 430 on the deadlift, but that seams a bit high to me.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:40 pm 
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I'm curious--what's the best DL prior to starting the "no-DL" training?

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:51 pm 
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I don't think there's any ratio. These still are two quite different movements. I wouldn't guess anything. I haven't been on meets yet, but I'll say what the expert's say. I would hit my opener Deadlift two or three weeks before the meet. Build up to your opening single. Louie Simmons has said that your opener should be a weigth you can 3RM when Louie himself comes to wake you up at nigth to lift that damn weigth. So build to a relatively heavy single, a weigth you could do triples with.

That would be my strategy, but I'd love to hear Kenny C's thougths about this.

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:02 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
I'm curious--what's the best DL prior to starting the "no-DL" training?


What do you mean, what is the best deadlift prior to starting no deadlift training?


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