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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:02 am 
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I have been searching for hours a list of muscle/movements and their antagonistic counterparts.
I have found some lists, but they either contradict other lists or ate incomplete.

I would love a definitive listing of the following muscles/movements:
Chest/Bench Press
Chest/Flys
Upper Chest/Incline Bench
Upper Chest/Incline Flys

Back/Rows
Lats/Pull-ups
Traps/Shrugs

Front Shoulder/Front Raises
Side Shoulder/Lateral Raises
Rear Shoulder/Rear Lateral Raises

Thanks in advance!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:59 am 
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Brak wrote:
I have been searching for hours a list of muscle/movements and their antagonistic counterparts.
I have found some lists, but they either contradict other lists or ate incomplete.

I would love a definitive listing of the following muscles/movements:
Chest/Bench Press
Chest/Flys
Upper Chest/Incline Bench
Upper Chest/Incline Flys

Back/Rows
Lats/Pull-ups
Traps/Shrugs

Front Shoulder/Front Raises
Side Shoulder/Lateral Raises
Rear Shoulder/Rear Lateral Raises

Thanks in advance!

Don't think of exercises. Think of movements.
What happens during these exercises. Compound multi-joint and multiplanar movements aren't easy or even smart to categorize by muscles involved. Then again something like front raises are very simple since they only move from a single joint in a single plain. With a basic understanding of human anatomy, many of these questions should be no-brainers. Hell, even if you can use google you could figure this out. What muscle(s) causes the flexion of the arm?
Read anatomy, understand movement planes and patterns and you got this figured out.
This is also a very good, helpful resource: http://exrx.net/Articulations/Shoulder. ... chor103519

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:09 am 
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Brak wrote:
I have been searching for hours a list of muscle/movements and their antagonistic counterparts.
I have found some lists, but they either contradict other lists or ate incomplete.


Agonist-Antagonist Muscle Groups
http://thesuccessseekers.com/the-agonis ... supersets/

Common Sense Approach

Agonist Muscle groups are basically on the opposite side of the Agonist Muscle Groups, see the article above.

As you know working muscle groups in a movement are the Agonist. The muscle groups not performing the work are the Antagonist muscle groups.

It's like Day/Night, Ebb/Flow of the ocean, North/South, etc.


Quote:
I would love a definitive listing of the following muscles/movements:
Chest/Bench Press
Chest/Flys
Upper Chest/Incline Bench
Upper Chest/Incline Flys

Back/Rows
Lats/Pull-ups
Traps/Shrugs

Front Shoulder/Front Raises
Side Shoulder/Lateral Raises
Rear Shoulder/Rear Lateral Raises


Pushing Muscles

In performing a Pressing/Pushing Movement (Anterior Deltoid, Triceps and Pectoral Muscles) are the working Agonist Muscle Groups.

Pulling Muscles

In a Pressing Movement, that means the Pulling Muscles (Posterior Deltoid, Lats, Biceps) are the Agonist Muscle Groups.

Reverse

When performing a Pulling Movement, they are the working Agonist which makes the Pushing Muscles the Antagonist.

Lower Body

This applies to a certain extent to the lower body, the legs.

The Quadriceps and the Hamstrings have a Agonist/Antagonist Relationship.

Lombard's Paradox

However, as with everything in life, there are exceptions to the rule.

In most movement, when the Agonist Muscles Contract the Antagonist Muscles Relaxes but that is not the case in a Squat.

In a Squat an anomaly occurs. The Quadriceps and Hamstrings both Contract at the same time to get you up. This is know as Lombardi's Paradox.

Kenny Croxdale

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Last edited by Kenny Croxdale on Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:43 am 
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Lombard's Paradox, not Lombardi.

This simultaneous contraction of agonist and antagonist comes from the fact that most major muscle cross 2 joints. The actual length of the muscle doesn't change and the muscle can be lengthening and shortening at the same time.

Multi joint muscles are actually quite common. Gastroc, hamstriongs, some quad muscels, some arm muscles, and back muscles all cross multiple joints. This provides mobility and stability in an efficient manner. This is also why focusing on movements instead of muscles is a good idea.

http://www.biotensegrity.com/stealth_movers.php

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:57 am 
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stuward wrote:
Lombard's Paradox, not Lombardi.


Correction make.

Thanks


Quote:
This simultaneous contraction of agonist and antagonist comes from the fact that most major muscle cross 2 joints. The actual length of the muscle doesn't change and the muscle can be lengthening and shortening at the same time.

Multi joint muscles are actually quite common. Gastroc, hamstriongs, some quad muscels, some arm muscles, and back muscles all cross multiple joints. This provides mobility and stability in an efficient manner. This is also why focusing on movements instead of muscles is a good idea.

http://www.biotensegrity.com/stealth_movers.php


Cool stuff. The best part is the frogs.

Kenny

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:15 pm 
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Thanks you for all the replies thus far. I understand some more, but also am confused some more.

From what I have read, from the link Dub gave, am I to understand that the delts, traps, lats, and chest all are part of the same group?

The link that Kenny gave I have read before posting my message. I found it to be incomplete as it only gave the following sets:
Biceps Curl vs. Triceps Extension (Biceps vs. Triceps)
Barbell Bench Press vs. Barbell Deadlift or Barbell Bent Row (Chest vs. Back)
Dumbbell Press vs. Dumbbell Deadlift (Chest vs Back)
Shoulder Press vs. Pull ups (Shoulders vs. Lat)
Leg Extension vs. Leg curls (Quadriceps vs. Hamstrings)
Back Extension vs. Crunches (Lower Back vs. Abs)

But this contradicts another site (sorry I can't link) which stated that the Shoulder Press isn't the antagonist for Pull-ups, but its the Incline Bench Press.

I know to be thinking more in terms of movements, but an exercise is an application of a movement - hence me asking the way I did.

On the Shoulder link that Dub gave caused me to be confused in the following points:
It shows that a pull up is using Latissimus dorsi, Pectoralis major (sternal head), Pectoralis major (clavicular head), Teres major, Coracobrachialis, Triceps brachii (long head).
But on the page for pull ups on the exrx site (sorry I can't link) it shows Latissimus Dorsi, Brachialis, Brachioradialis, Biceps Brachii, Teres Major, Deltoid-Posterior, Infraspinatus, Teres Minor, Rhomboids, Levator Scapulae, Trapezius-Lower, Trapezius-Middle, Pectoralis Minor.
So....... which one is correct?

Also, this other site (sorry it won't let me link) has the following:
pectorals/latissimus dorsi (pecs and lats)
anterior deltoids/posterior deltoids (front and back shoulder)
trapezius/deltoids (traps and delts)

I assume from what I had read before I posted this that the antagonist for Bench Press was Back Rows. To me that still makes sense.
But what is the antagonist of the Pull-up? Is it Military Press or Incline Bench Press?
What about Flys, would it be Rear Delt Raises? But according to the site referenced above it should be Front Shoulder Raises!

Would the antagonist for Front Shoulder Raises really be Barbell Pullovers?

The big one that I can't figure is what would be the antagonist for Shoulder Shrugs? I would think maybe dips, but that is engaging a bunch of muscles that the shrugs don't.

Thanks again!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:22 pm 
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antagonist training is easier if you just think in terms of direction instead of muscle

-pair exercises pushing in front of you with exercises pulling behind you (bench press & row)
-pair exercises pushing up with exercises pulling down (shoulder press & pulldown)

it works for isolation moves too. So chest flyes pair with rear delt flyes, front raises with straight arm pulldowns, etc.

Just do the movement you just did in reverse.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:33 pm 
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So what would be the reverse to the shrugs?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:40 pm 
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Brak wrote:
So what would be the reverse to the shrugs?

Pullups?

Actually,it's this movement. http://exrx.net/Articulations/Scapula.html#anchor71475 although hardly anyone trains that movement by itself.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:53 pm 
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What is that exercise called that is being shown?

Also, what would be the reverse of Lateral Shoulder Raises?
Please don't say pull ups. lol


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:17 pm 
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I don't really think there is a reverse of lateral raises. Maybe straight arm pulldowns done with your arms at your sides...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:51 am 
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I'm really curious about why you're asking these questions? Why is it important to know the "reverse" of shrugs or raises?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:05 am 
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I found the reverse to the lateral raises. While thinking about the lateral raises and their possible antagonist my mind went to the gymnastic rings. I remembered that there was a nice they did on the rings that was the reverse if te lateral raises. So after hunting around the web for an hour or so I found it. It's called the Iron Cross. The ExRx site has it listed as a lats exercise called "lever iron cross". I also found on the site a discussion to what to cll it when using cables, and if it used any different muscles.
Again I apollgize for not providing links, but the forum won't let me.

So all I need now to complete this quest is the antagonist of the shrug.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:10 am 
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Doc, as I'm sure you'll agree, knowledge can sometimes be power.
I would like to be able to better superset exercises beside just biceps/triceps and quads/hams.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:41 am 
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good luck with the iron cross. 99% of people won't even get close


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