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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:42 pm 
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-Good mornings
-Lying leg press
-Lunges
-Hamstring machine
-Calf machine

All moves mentioned can put unlimited weights to progress. + All "core" excercises: planks, crunches, leg raises, rotations, side bends which can progress with weights too.

What specific muscles is you get trained trough deadlift/squat that you won't get in any isolation excercises?

I consider it's just compound movement and should be avoided with people who have problems with lumbar/knees because you are using extreme weights. Instead trough isolation you can adjust less weights on particular excercise like good mornings.

I see some arguments that in squat you can develope core trough stabilization but I call that crap because again you can develope those muscles trough isolation. Movement is more effective than stabilization as it has bigger role.

Another one is function to use all muscles at once, but that's just adaption issue. Why would normal person who wants to be healthy and fit do squat and deadlift? Are marathon runners/swimmers unhealthy because they don't do these? Also people who are after for looks, what squat/deadlift does different? Absolutely nothing.

I do not hate these movements. I use do all 3 big lifts with isolation excercises but I want to be frank and realistic about this. I want to hear this from science point of view instead bros telling me it's good because their caveman ancestors did it and it's so oldschool. I want to know reasoning behind why isolation movements can't replace them.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:22 pm 
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You can stimulate your muscles to the same extent except that deadlifts and squats create a systemic intensity that you can't get with isolation exercises. That ability to generate massive force is probably the most functional of all fitness attributes next to explosive power.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:32 pm 
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Good Mornings, Lunges and Leg Presses aren't isolation exercises. Meanwhile, these exercises aren't necessarily any safer. For example, it's common for people to round their lower back on leg presses, and lunges might not be the best choice for someone with knee issues.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:44 am 
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I guess its best for athlethic purpouse where you need get full body for maximal force.

But for regular joe who trains for health and looks I would avoid doing them alltogether.

I consider squats extremely bad excercise. Whats point doing only 20% of hyperextension? I rather do it 100% in good morning where im forced to also use 4x less weights because you dont assist with legs.

Leg press im doing full range of motion in lying hack squat where your spine is forced to be in neutal position.

Im going to lift next 30 years so im actually going to abandon both of them for safety issues. Health and being fit is more important than ego.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:46 am 
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Search this forum for the word "congruent". You'll find a good discussion involving author Bill DeSimone.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:49 am 
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Thanks. Lot of intresting info I will check out arguments on both sides. I give him credit allready for not speaking with meathead language.

I can squat atm 360lbs which is not much yet but im getting constantly stronger. I feel like im playing russian roulette instead being happy for lifting improvement. My back doesnt hurt doing them but im not going to take that risk for nothing.

I have done heavy hacks and leg presses and actually consider them as worse as squats because they will round up your back. Im doing everything in lying hack machine doing insane amount of weights full rom to failure without effecting my back. I can youtube myself if someone wants to know what kind machine im talking about.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:39 pm 
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"I consider squats extremely bad excercise. Whats point doing only 20% of hyperextension? I rather do it 100% in good morning where im forced to also use 4x less weights because you dont assist with legs." - excore

Good Mornings are a great exercise, but they're a poor substitute for squats. In fact, they're comparable to a Romanian Deadlift (AKA Straight-leg Deadlift, Stiff-knee Deadlift, etc.). Meanwhile, 1/4 of your squat weight is pretty light.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:47 pm 
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"I can squat atm 360lbs which is not much yet but im getting constantly stronger. I feel like im playing russian roulette instead being happy for lifting improvement. My back doesnt hurt doing them but im not going to take that risk for nothing." - excore

You don't need to be a powerlifter to include back squats in your program. You might try moderate reps with somewhat less weight. Alternately, you could try front squats, which have most of the benefits of back squats with dramatically less lower back involvement.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:06 pm 
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I think you're oversimplifying things by describing squats as a "bad exercise". Imagine if I told you that YOU shouldn't bench press because I have a bad shoulder. Does that make any sense? Why should YOU change your program to accommodate MY physical limitations?

The same logic applies to squats. While it's true that some lifters can't squat (or can't squat heavy) for a variety of reasons, many others squat regularly for decades without issue (including some of the older members of this forum).


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:18 am 
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excore wrote:
I guess its best for athlethic purpouse where you need get full body for maximal force.

But for regular joe who trains for health and looks I would avoid doing them alltogether.

I consider squats extremely bad excercise. Whats point doing only 20% of hyperextension? I rather do it 100% in good morning where im forced to also use 4x less weights because you dont assist with legs.

Leg press im doing full range of motion in lying hack squat where your spine is forced to be in neutal position.

Im going to lift next 30 years so im actually going to abandon both of them for safety issues. Health and being fit is more important than ego.


That is just aweful advice. I don't mean to be an ass, but that is advice that will get people hurt.

http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/squats-superior-to-leg-presses-for-muscle-hypertrophy-and-athletic-prowess/

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:32 am 
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excore wrote:
... Why would normal person who wants to be healthy and fit do squat and deadlift? ...


My knowledge of the english language isn`t good enough to participate in a philosophical discussion... I just wanted to say that a normal person would profit much for their daily life, if they could do proper (bodyweight) squats or deadlifts (or other functional movements) and if they would be able to stabilize their trunks properly when picking up things from the floor or reaching high oder low into shelves... :wink:

These "normal people" probably don`t need to max out on these lifts obviously... and perhaps it would be enough for them to work in the often criticized set/rep-range of 3x20 to 5x20 and put on weight very defensively.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:55 pm 
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Crow wrote:
excore wrote:
... Why would normal person who wants to be healthy and fit do squat and deadlift? ...


My knowledge of the english language isn`t good enough to participate in a philosophical discussion... I just wanted to say that a normal person would profit much for their daily life, if they could do proper (bodyweight) squats or deadlifts (or other functional movements) and if they would be able to stabilize their trunks properly when picking up things from the floor or reaching high oder low into shelves... :wink:


exactly. Having the strength and mobility to squat and deadlift properly has so many benefits there are literally too many to mention.

Considering how prevalent back pain is in our society, which is almost always caused by weak, inhibited glutes and a weak core, training those muscles to work properly can greatly increase quality of life.

I mean sure, you can hurt yourself doing them - I myself have done so on a number of occasions - but you can hurt yourself doing any exercise. Load the leg extension up full and jerk your back into it if you don't believe me. As long as your technique is good, and you don't force yourself past the point your mobility allows (ie don't deadlift from the floor if you can't do it with a straight back, don't squat so low that your hips curl under) then you'll be fine.

I have to say, this is a very weird thread considering your last thread where you talked about how you were a powerlifter and believed that you only ever needed to squat, bench and deadlift to succeed in that discipline...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:03 pm 
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Lots of post. Knew I was going to get heat from this.

@hoosegow

I wasn't talking about normal leg press and I do not agree with leg presses with bill desimone eather. I never did them in my life because I can put crapload of weights because angle of that machine is doing halfsquats. Because of weight amount it's bad for groin area. It's also bad for lower back because it can easily round up. Just google lower back pain+leg presses.

I'm talking about horizontal leg press where your spine is in neutral position and you can do deep squat in it. I personally go to failures on it with my legs everytime with very heavy weights and it doesn't effect back at all.

@Crow

For health benefits squatting and deadlifting is fine. I'm talking now about progressive weight training and how it is bad for your back in long run.

@robertscott

I've been doing those 3 lifts yes but it's mostly because I just like handle and progress with bigger weights but just because I like something doesn't mean I should do it. I want to be realistic about health releated issues.

@Matt Z

I don't have physical limitations. I'm not conserned what's happening now but what will hold in future.

Front squats are much better but it's hard to progress doing them if you can't even hold it properly. Some people are just not enough flexible for it.

Also how good mornings are poor substitute for quads. You just carry less load because you do full range of movement and don't help with quads. It's nothing away from erector spinae.

In long run it will be load too much stress for your discs in your back and not healthy or even needed excercise.

I also think you should train back with 8-12 reps instead doing 1-3 like in squats. How many accident powerlifters have is just mind blowing.

People really need to think realisticly body function instead being meathead for all marketing in some arnold era caveman training. If they would open their eyes and see how many 40-60 year old people have back problems of carrying releated activities they've done in their job. Spine is not meant to deal 400 lbs weights and it doesn't improve your health or athlethic performance.

Your explosive power comes from strenght and muscle and how you can adapt that in your sport. Squat is not only glutes/quads excercise out there.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:28 am 
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Excore, doing squats progressively and reasonably does not lead to back pain. The human spine that is strong and conditioned for it is perfectly fine with 400# squats. The key is to progress in a reasonable manner and listen to your body so you don't overdo it. Most 40-60 year olds with back problems have never squatted 400. It's not the squatting. It's inactivity that does th most damage. Of course there is risk with any endeavor. Competitive squatters are exposing themselves to risks that the average recreational lifter never encounters. Don't compare yourself to them.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:44 am 
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excore wrote:


I also think you should train back with 8-12 reps instead doing 1-3 like in squats. How many accident powerlifters have is just mind blowing.

People really need to think realisticly body function instead being meathead for all marketing in some arnold era caveman training. If they would open their eyes and see how many 40-60 year old people have back problems of carrying releated activities they've done in their job. Spine is not meant to deal 400 lbs weights and it doesn't improve your health or athlethic performance.


Where are you getting your information? This is all wrong. Have you done any research at all? 40-60 year old people have back problems because they are weak and sedentary. You want to help that? Squat and squat heavy. I don't think you can get more realistic body function that squat or deadlift.

Me thinks I've been sucked into :spam1:

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