ExRx.net

Exercise Prescription on the Net
It is currently Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:11 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:52 am 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1113
Matt Z wrote:
The 5th link didn't work.

"Maintain whatever spinal position is chosen and not allow the position to buckle." - Bret Contreras

Again, while allowing for round-back deadlifting, the article warns against excessive spine movement.


Good and Bad Rounding

One of the biggest problem is most individual see any rounding as bad. They don't see any difference.

As the article stated, there bad and good rounding. It is dependent on where the rounding takes place.

Quote:
Apparently, I'm in the minority.


Gym Rats

Actually, you are in the majority with the gym rats.

That because the only education (good and bad) they obtain is what is handed down from one rat to another.

As the saying goes, "If you scream something loud enough and long enough people believe it."

The majority of people are just to lazy to research and learn anything.

They perform short answers like "Yes" or "NO" to complex questions.

Anything longer than a sentence is too much information for them.

Multiple Articles

Another thing is you need to read more than one article on a topic.

Some information in an article need to be extrapolated.

In other word, there's no flashing light on the answer. It is inferred or indicated.

5th Link

Evidently, it disappeared. That is why I keep a copy of all articles.

Kenny Croxdale

A Defense of Round-backed Deadlifting http://www.myosynthesis.com/roundbacked-deadlifting
February 19, 2010

Roundbackers Unite!

Most of us know the Deadlift as an exercise that works the lower back, along with its effects on the glutes, hamstrings, traps/mid-back, and just about everything else.

Nearly everyone stresses the importance of keeping the lower back extended or at least neutral while deadlifting, or doing any other movement for that matter – that is, keeping your back arched or, better, flat. Stuart McGill, one of the foremost experts on the spine, considers that neutral spine position to be both the strongest (from the standpoint of minimizing damage) and thus the healthiest.

Accordingly the deadlift is taught with a flat lumbar spine. The rationale is to protect and stabilize the spine – which is the role of both the spinal erectors, the numerous abdominal muscles, and most everything else in the trunk. This is good advice, in general. However, there’s reason to question the notion that you must never let your back round under any circumstances.

A whole lot of very strong deadlifters have lifted with form that would make any armchair Internet coach cry, from Bob Peoples to Vince Anello to current favorite Konstantin Konstantinovs. It appears that theory tells us one thing – that the lumbar spine is weakest and most prone to injury in a flexed position – while the empirical evidence from strong-ass deadlifters is showing us something else.

The reason for all this roundbacking, empirically speaking, is simple: when you’re pulling weights that some multiple of your body weight, it becomes a matter of optimal leverages. In all cases, you want to maximize your ability to apply force and minimize the distance the bar will travel. When deadlifting, that means keeping the bar close to your shins and keeping your shoulders and scapulae directly over the bar at the start, and keeping the bar close to your center of gravity as you pull.

When you pull a heavy deadlift, it’s much more efficient to keep your hips high and effectively stiff-leg the weight. With the hips high, you’re basically getting the knees out of the way; as a result, the bar stays closer to your center of gravity and the bar path is reduced as a result. It’s much easier to brute-force the weight up that way, as compared to the more technical style normally taught.

This is different than in a clean, where you’re trying to get the bar into a specific position for the second pull, the explosive phase of the lift. You need the bar somewhat out in front of you, to get around the knees and into the proper position; in fact, analysis shows that both the clean and snatch-grip pulls follow an s-shaped movement. In a deadlift, that particular goal is absent; less bar travel is a more efficient and much stronger pull. You get a shorter, straighter line this way.

In this light, back rounding isn’t happening so that your back will lift the weight (which really is a no-no). Instead, it’s to keep your hips in the optimal position while getting you closer to the bar and shortening the distance it will travel. The hips are ideally doing most of the work, not the lower back.
What you’ll tend to notice with the low-hip or clean style that’s commonly taught is that, as the weights get stronger, your hips will “shoot up” when you begin the pull, which wastes movement and can kill a heavy lift. If you’re coming into it convinced that high-hip and round-back pulling is bad, you’d probably notice this happening and try to lower the weight to work on your form. That’s one option I guess, but I wouldn’t expect that to carry you very far if your goal is to improve your maximum deadlift strength.

I’m going to suggest a different approach here. I don’t think the hip-shooting is a cue to reduce the weights; I think it’s a cue that your hips are in the wrong place to begin with. High hips aren’t a form defect; when hips shoot up before the pull, it means that 1) your body’s trying to achieve the best pulling position and 2) you have a poor setup because your hips aren’t already where they need to be. This is a case of your body defaulting to its strongest position, in other words.

If you look at the deadlift as a “hip hinge” movement (thanks to IGx for that one), instead of a squat or a clean, this makes more sense. The deadlift isn’t a squat with the bar in your hands. It’s not a clean. It’s a deadlift. These are all different exercises with different needs, so I’m going to suggest embracing the style instead of considering it a fatal flaw that must be fixed.

The only issue that can be raise here is safety; after all, isn’t this potentially dangerous? It can be, yes, but there’s a lot of issues we have to look at first. Namely, if the biggest guys are rounding their backs, to at least some degree, and we aren’t seeing them destroy their backs, then clearly there’s something else going on here. Remember, observations are what drive the model; the model doesn’t dictate reality. This isn’t proof by itself, but it is a good starting point.

Konstantin Konstantinovs, Svend Karlsen, Jouko Ahola, Ano Turtiainen, Vince Anello, Bob Gaynor, Bill Kazmaier, and of course Bob Peoples are all examples of this mindset in play, whether they’re doing it on purpose (like Peoples was) or whether they just pull without worrying about their form like a frantic hen.

Yes, form-warriors, I know that Konstantinovs’ lumbar rounding isn’t very pronounced in most of his videos, which is because he’s smart and doesn’t take the dreaded Side-Angle Deadlift Video. He still rounds, and he admits he pulls that way on purpose.

In any case, Konstantinovs is not the only one. Lifters have been pulling round-backed since at least Bob Peoples, and Peoples was advocating the style back in the 1940s; he also pulled over 700s lbs weighing under 200 at the time. Strongmen have little choice but to pull round-backed on events like the Atlas stones, and you can see in Karlsen and Ahola’s videos that they deadlift that way too.
Cat-backing: Round-backing’s Ugly Sister
I will concede that this style is not for newbies, and beginners should be taught the “correct” deadlift style. Newbies that pull with a round back most likely just don’t know what they’re doing. It’s a lack of knowledge, lack of body awareness, or both. Not knowing any better is not an excuse for cat-backing the weights.

This is equivalent of the guy that’s completely sedentary outside his job, then bends over one day to pick up a 10 lb box and hurts his back. Of course he’s injury-prone with a flexed spine; he’s done absolutely nothing to prepare himself for the strain. If you got this same untrained, sedentary person to squat with maximal weights, you can almost guarantee he’d hurt himself doing that, too.

With that in mind you have to distinguish between cat-backing and round-backing. Cat-backing is when you start to pull and it looks like somebody scared a cat. The back is arched due to weak muscles and simply not knowing how to keep tight. What you’ll see is guys that either start right out with a rounded back, or their back will round as they start the pull. Neither is good; it’s a compensatory movement. This should be highly discouraged, because it will inevitably mess you up.

There’s a difference in cat-backing and in pulling round-backed intentionally and knowingly when you’ve developed the strength to handle it. Strength is not only an adaptation of the muscles and nervous system, remember. Connective tissues have to adapt as well. Just as an experienced powerlifter can handle 1RM squat weights without injury, it’s just as possible that experienced strength athletes will adapt both anatomically and technically to a round-backed style of pulling.

With that in mind, my argument here can be summed up as such: teach the “correct” style, but don’t freak out when a guy starts to get some rounding as his deadlift climbs over 400 lbs. You can either keep resetting to 135 and hoping that somehow light weights will carry over to max lifts (they won’t), or you can deal with the cards your dealt and adjust to the style.

The big concern is that rounding will wind up hurting you sooner or later – even if you don’t feel it now, you’re racking up microtrauma and one day you’ll get hurt. Appeal to consequences aside, this is despite no actual data to back up that claim.

Indeed Stuart McGill himself recently examined the spinal loads generated by several competitive strongmen across multiple events (PMID: 19528856). Strongman events aren’t the same thing as a barbell exercise, no. In fact, they’re arguably worse if you’re from the school of thought that sees the body as a fragile thing that must never move outside its preferred positions. Strongman events are odd lifts that put the body into weird positions.
In this study, McGill and co. look at several of these events, including the stone lift (or Atlas stones). The interesting parts:

The [stone lift] case study shows how the spine is fully flexed and remains flexed for the majority of the lift. The spine is “hooked” over the stone and remains hooked as the stone is rolled up to the thighs. The extension of the hip and spine is used to place the stone on the platform. The world-class strongman once again used total torso stiffening to lock the spine, whereas the club strongman moved the spine and had distinct phases in muscle activation, compromising both performance and protective stiffness.

Although it had been hypothesized that the SL would create the highest compressive load on the lumbar spine, this was not the case. The stone’s center of mass was positioned close to the low back by the strongman, who curled over the stone with a torso “hooking” technique. This required extreme spine flexion, which was maintained until the final hip and torso extension thrust to place the stone on the platform.

In his discussion, McGill reaches effectively the same conclusions as I have:

The SL is an interesting study for the tradeoff between performance and injury risk control. While the spine is fully flexed to hook over the stone, this assists in getting the stone as close as possible to the low back and hip. These are the joints subjected to the most torque and, therefore, are the limiters of performance (notwithstanding grip on the stone). However, full spine flexion is the posture in which the spine has the lowest tolerance or the highest risk of end-plate fracture. However, the spine in the world-class lifter remained in this locked position until the final extension phase needed to place the stone. In this way, spine power was low during the lifting phase (i.e., no spine motion). Low spine power reduces injury risk, and high spine power (both high load and high spine velocity) greatly increases injury risk.
Technique differences were observed between the world-class competitor and the others that led to superior stiffness and hip and back moment generation to enhance performance and reduce the risk of injury.

In other words, lifters that train with a rounded back adapt to it. By developing the isometric strength of the trunk muscles, postural stability of the lumbar spine can be maintained even in flexion. The hips and other related muscles are actually handling the loads, while the spine itself remains stable. As long as the spine power is low, then the risk of injury is low.

It’s a matter of timing, as experience lifters will engage and brace the core before movement begins at the hip, which itself has a protective effect on the spine.

McGill notes that this is a trade-off between safety and performance, which from the standpoint of a professional concerned with safety is completely understandable. For a strength athlete, this means that round-backing isn’t the unforgivable sin it’s so often made out to be. When you’re competing in any of these strength sports, you have to accept that you’re taking on the risk of injury. It just comes with the territory. If you don’t like it, then you’d do best to find a new hobby.

I read this is McGill’s way of saying “don’t do this, newbies, but if you’ve got the wherewithal of a high-level strength athlete, just be careful”. That’s a far cry from the form-warriors that want to appeal to made-up consequences, complete with injury statistics that don’t exist, would have you believe.
How to Round-back and Piss Off the Internet
You know I can’t leave you hanging with just the theory argument, so let’s talk practical gym-applications. First, we can start with Bob Peoples and how he described the form:

On October 4 I finally made a new world record deadlift record of 700 pounds. At this time I was lifting on normally filled lungs. However, I then started lifting on empty lungs and with a round back – that is I would breathe out to normal, round my back, raise the hips, look down and begin the lift. I feel this is much safer than following the customary advice of the experts. By breathing out you lessen the internal pressure and by lifting with a round back you lessen the leverage – all of which adds many pounds to your lift. I have used the reverse grip and also the overhand hook grip but I have now changed to the palms up or curl grip (with hook) and will experiment with it for a while to see if it helps.

Bob Peoples and Terry Todd
Bob Peoples and Terry Todd, surely ruining their spines

That’s the basic sequence of events to follow: exhale and round the thoracic spine, grab the bar, inhale into your gut and brace the spine, then pull.
There is one thing we can all agree on: to make this work, you need devastatingly strong lower-back and abdominal muscles. Bill Starr has long suggested doing Good Mornings, Stiff-Legged Deadlifts, and high-rep back hyperextensions to build the strength of the spinal erectors. This is not unlike the suggestions from Westside, as Louie Simmons has also recognized the value of having a very strong midsection, suggesting a healthy diet of glute-ham raises, reverse hypers, and assorted ab-strengthening work.

If you want to be a round-backer, you need to work the lower back and the abs. When is say work the abs, I don’t mean 100 crunches and then those leg raises where you hang from the sleeves on the bar. Use loaded exercises.

You also need to time your core bracing so that your lumbar spine is fixed into position before the movement begins. McGill notes that this timing is critical to the process, and I can see why. I’d be willing to bet large amounts of money that anyone getting injured from round-backing is either not doing this, such as the clueless noobs that don’t know any better, or simply has trunk muscles too weak to handle the weights.

So take your deep breath, brace the core, and pull.

Happy roundbacking.

_________________
Thanks TimD.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:56 am 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1113
hoosegow wrote:
I don't attempt to coach deadlift. I don't attempt to believe I know what in the hell i'm talking about on deadlift. I hate doing it and the more I train, the worse it gets. Consequently I end up only deadlifting at meets.

I know I should work on it, but I don't know what in the hell to do. I got people cuing me who are good deadlifters, but are built completely different from me.

I've watched videos about deadlifting, read books on it, read articles upon articles and I still can't figure it out.


LOL. That how I feel about the squat.

Kenny Croxdale

_________________
Thanks TimD.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:37 am 
Offline
Junior Member
Junior Member

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:38 pm
Posts: 245
Just wanted to chime in and say that I've been reading this thread with great interest and hope the discussion continues. I love deadlifting, I do it every week, been doing it for years, and every week its the lift that I have to pay the most attention to my form.

Kenny, from where I sit, it's hard for me to see application of what you're saying to the non-elite-world-class lifter. Yeah, they can get amazing results out of rounding their backs...but for us regular mortals, keeping a neutral spine and "pushing the floor away" is the best, simplest technique to keep gains in strength coming while staying injury free. I don't want to come off as saying it's the best or only way to deadlift, but can you please explain, so that I understand, your animosity toward the cue? Is it simply because most people lack the leg strength to actually lift that way?

I'm asking because I'm hoping that you'll supply some insight that I can apply to my own training.

Which is really the wrong question for me to be asking, since it's grip strength that's limiting my DL, not my legs or back.

Any tips on grip? :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:54 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Posts: 4505
Location: Pennsylvania
"Gym Rats

Actually, you are in the majority with the gym rats. That because the only education (good and bad) they obtain is what is handed down from one rat to another. As the saying goes, "If you scream something loud enough and long enough people believe it." The majority of people are just to lazy to research and learn anything. They perform short answers like "Yes" or "NO" to complex questions.
Anything longer than a sentence is too much information for them." - Kenny Croxdale

Most gym rats I see deadlift with dramatic rounding (upper and lower), even with relatively modest weights. Often they fail to lockout, because they're so hunched over. Meanwhile, many lack the hip mobility to reach the barbell without rounding. I've also seen a lot of lifters who start out rounded and remain rounded for most of the lift, but finish in an exaggerated lean-back arch.

It's been my experience that I usually fail if I start to round on a heavy single attempt. Likewise, when deadlifting for reps, I tend to run out of steam whenever my posture starts to break down.


Last edited by Matt Z on Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:17 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Posts: 4505
Location: Pennsylvania
"Any tips on grip? :wink:" - Khronos8

I've had good results using static barbell holds. Just set up a heavy barbell a few inches below lockout. Then lift it off the pins/hooks and hold it for a slow ten count. Repeat 3 or 4 times with increasingly heavy loading. I usually do these at the end of my workout after Romanian Deadlifts or Good Mornings.

PS) I don't pull limit weight on this exercise. Instead I'll generally work up to a weight that's slightly heavier than my best deadlift and increase the weight as my deadlift increases. Also, I make sure I can set the bar down in a hurry if my grip starts to slip, since I don't want to rip my hands.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:57 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Posts: 4505
Location: Pennsylvania
"When you pull a heavy deadlift, it’s much more efficient to keep your hips high and effectively stiff-leg the weight. With the hips high, you’re basically getting the knees out of the way; as a result, the bar stays closer to your center of gravity and the bar path is reduced as a result. It’s much easier to brute-force the weight up that way, as compared to the more technical style normally taught." - ?

This is basically what I'm doing. I'm just doing it with a neutral spine.

"In this light, back rounding isn’t happening so that your back will lift the weight (which really is a no-no). Instead, it’s to keep your hips in the optimal position while getting you closer to the bar and shortening the distance it will travel. The hips are ideally doing most of the work, not the lower back." - ?

Again, while allowing for round-back lifting, the author makes it clear that the hip should be doing most of the work.

"In other words, lifters that train with a rounded back adapt to it. By developing the isometric strength of the trunk muscles, postural stability of the lumbar spine can be maintained even in flexion. The hips and other related muscles are actually handling the loads, while the spine itself remains stable. As long as the spine power is low, then the risk of injury is low." - ?

Hips doing most of the work while the spine itself remains stable.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:09 am 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1113
Matt Z wrote:
"Gym Rats

Most gym rats I see deadlift with dramatic rounding (upper and lower), even with relatively modest weights.


Rounding

There's good and bad rounding. Upper rounding is find.

Lower rounding is a disaster waiting to happen.

Moderate Loads

How are you determining it is a moderate load?

It the a definitive number assigned to "Moderate Load"?

What may be moderate for you, may be heavy to another.


Quote:
Often they fail to lockout, because they're so hunched over. Meanwhile, many lack the hip mobility to reach the barbell without rounding.


Hunched Over

This take us back to upper and lower back rounding. One is completely different from the other.

At this point, I question if you understand or know the difference when you see it.

Conventional Deadlift Meet Pulls

If you look at the great Conventional Deadlifters, you going to see most of them have upper back rounding.


Quote:
I've also seen a lot of lifters who start out rounded and remain rounded for most of the lift, but finish in an exaggerated lean-back arch.


You seen a lot because...

1) 80% of the individual in a gym are Morons.

2) You have programmed yourself to see what you want so see.

With that said, I doubt there are that many rounded deadlifter who finish with an "exaggerated lean-back".

Knee Bend

What usually occurs is the back is tried in at the top along with not being strong enough in the top position.

What many lifter then do is bend the knees to get finish the pull. In powerlifting, doing this is a violation of the rules (resting the bar on the thighs).


Quote:
It's been my experience that I usually fail if I start to round on a heavy single attempt.


That may be true. But it takes up back to, "In what part of the back are you rounding?"

Quote:
Likewise, when deadlifting for reps, I tend to run out of steam whenever my posture starts to break down.


You've Got It Backwards

What occurs is that when you fatigue, you form falls apart.

Once that happens, STOP the movement!!!

Continuing with bad technique reinforces bad technique. That is one of the problems with "Gym Morons".

About 80% of individuals working out in a gym are clueless. This fact insure that you see "A LOT" of stupid crap.

Kenny Croxdale

_________________
Thanks TimD.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:01 am 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1113
Khronos8 wrote:
Kenny, from where I sit, it's hard for me to see application of what you're saying to the non-elite-world-class lifter.

A Strong Case For The Round Back Deadlift

Contreras' article support the premise of minimizing heavy round back deadlift pulls.

I am okay with that.


Quote:
Yeah, they can get amazing results out of rounding their backs...but for us regular mortals, keeping a neutral spine and "pushing the floor away" is the best, simplest technique to keep gains in strength coming while staying injury free.


McLaughlin's Research

Dr. Tom McLaughlin's research as well as other research by other individuals with the National Strength and Conditioning Association have demonstrated the erectors break the weight off the floor, rather than the legs.

"Pushing The Floor Away"

If you preform the movement with this method, it becomes a different exercise.

It tantamount to the difference between a High and Low Bar Squat...two completely different exercises.

To insure you maintain the "Leg Drive" with this method, the weight will be lower.

Once you increase the load and/or push yourself to gut out more repetitions, the back is going to come into play.

Trap Bar Deadlift

If you really want to take the back out of the equation, Trap Bar Deadlifts are the answer.

Trap Bar Deadlifts is a misnomer. The movement pattern is closer to a squat that a deadlift.


Quote:
I don't want to come off as saying it's the best or only way to deadlift, but can you please explain, so that I understand, your animosity toward the cue?


Animosity

It driven a misconception that won't die. It amount to the old misconception that doing mega situp will get ride of fat stored on you waist.

The Cuing

Cuing to "Push the floor away" amount to continuing to reinforce other that doing mega situp will get ride of a bit waist.

Quote:
Is it simply because most people lack the leg strength to actually lift that way?


Biomechanics

The Conventional Deadlift is a biomechanically is a back movement.

You have to pull the bar back on top of you. This requires a strong posterior chain (erectors, glutes, hamstrings).

Sumo Deadlift

"Push the floor away" applies more to the Sumo Deadlift. The back involvement is minimized, compared to the Conventional Deadlift.

For those who REALLY prefer to "Push the floor away", need to Sumo!

High Bar Squatters

High Bar Squatters traditionally pull more weight with the Sumo Deadlift.


Quote:
I'm asking because I'm hoping that you'll supply some insight that I can apply to my own training.


Articles

I provided article above that give you insight.

Read them, think about the information. Then re-read them a few more times.

Then do your own research.


Quote:
Which is really the wrong question for me to be asking, since it's grip strength that's limiting my DL, not my legs or back.

Any tips on grip? :wink:


Three Type of Grip Strength

There are three types of grip strength.

1) Crunch

2) Pinch

3) Holding

You need to increase your "Holding" strength.

Holding Strength Training

1) Hanging from a Chin Bar for 30 - 60 seconds. Perform your body weight. Also, hook a dip belt around your waist and do them.

Preform them with various grips.

1) Both hand supinated.

2) Both hand pronated.

3) Mixed Grip

a) Supinated Left Hand, Pronated Right Hand.

b) Supinated Right Hand, Pronated Left Hand.

2) Weighted Bar Holds. Load the bar in a power rack, with the rack just above your lock out position.

Perform holds for 30 - 60 seconds.

3) Thick Bar Holds.

If you don't have a thick bar, you can purchase "Fat Gripz".

However, you can accomplish the same thing by wearing gloves.

4) Hand Gripper.

Instead of squeezing the gripper shut for repetitions, close it all the way.

Then hold it shut for 30 - 60 seconds.

Kenny Croxdale

_________________
Thanks TimD.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:59 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Posts: 4505
Location: Pennsylvania
"Rounding There's good and bad rounding. Upper rounding is find. Lower rounding is a disaster waiting to happen." - Kenny Croxdale

Like I said, upper and lower, like a scared cat. Not resembling anything you're likely to see at a powerlifting meet.

"How are you determining it is a moderate load?" - Kenny Croxdale

If someone is performing sets of 8 or 10 range, I would consider that light-to-moderate loading. Likewise, if someone uses the same horrendous form from his first warmup set on, I would presume that loading isn't the problem.

"Hunched Over This take us back to upper and lower back rounding. One is completely different from the other. At this point, I question if you understand or know the difference when you see it." - Kenny Croxdale

Again, both upper and lower. Picture someone with lousy hip mobility trying to touch his toes. Now put a barbell in his hands.

"You seen a lot because...
1) 80% of the individual in a gym are Morons.
2) You have programmed yourself to see what you want so see.
With that said, I doubt there are that many rounded deadlifter who finish with an "exaggerated lean-back"." - Kenny Croxdale

This was common at the last gym I trained at, although I've never seen in elsewhere. I'm guessing it was a case of monkey-see-monkey-do, and needless to say none of these guys were competitive strength athletes.

"Knee Bend What usually occurs is the back is tried in at the top along with not being strong enough in the top position. What many lifter then do is bend the knees to get finish the pull. In powerlifting, doing this is a violation of the rules (resting the bar on the thighs)." - Kenny Croxdale

I'm familiar with hitching. I've seen that also, but that wasn't what I'm talking about. The exaggerated lean-back I'm talking about is quite deliberate and used on every rep, even on the lightest warmup sets.

"You've Got It Backwards What occurs is that when you fatigue, you form falls apart. Once that happens, STOP the movement!!!" - Kenny Croxdale

I do. I'm not an idiot. The point is I couldn't keep going if I tried.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:59 am 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1113
Matt Z wrote:
"Rounding There's good and bad rounding. Upper rounding is find. Lower rounding is a disaster waiting to happen." - Kenny Croxdale

Like I said, upper and lower, like a scared cat. Not resembling anything you're likely to see at a powerlifting meet.


Max Effort Pulls

You are going to see it in the gym with individuals preforming max effort pulls.

As previously stated, it is a survival mechanism. In other word, the body will shift the load to the strongest muscle group and automatically take the path of least resistance.

As Contreras noted, rounding allows you to pull the bar in closer to the Center of Gravity.

"How are you determining it is a moderate load?" - Kenny Croxdale

Quote:
If someone is performing sets of 8 or 10 range, I would consider that light-to-moderate loading.


Gut Busting Reps

The rep range does not designate if it is light to moderate.

The determinate factor is how intense the set is.

That means if your going for 8 repetitions and the 8th rep is a gut busting all out effort, it not a "light-to-moderate set."

Quote:
Likewise, if someone uses the same horrendous form from his first warmup set on, I would presume that loading isn't the problem.


Technique

I am okay with some upper back rounding, with lighter loads.

The problem with any deadlift, no matter the loading, is the lower back rounding. That definitely a problem.

Quote:
"Hunched Over This take us back to upper and lower back rounding. One is completely different from the other. At this point, I question if you understand or know the difference when you see it." - Kenny Croxdale

Again, both upper and lower. Picture someone with lousy hip mobility trying to touch his toes. Now put a barbell in his hands.


I find this answer puzzling. It like I ask you a question and your provide a somewhat unrelated answer.

Quote:
"You seen a lot because...
1) 80% of the individual in a gym are Morons.
2) You have programmed yourself to see what you want so see.
With that said, I doubt there are that many rounded deadlifter who finish with an "exaggerated lean-back"." - Kenny Croxdale

This was common at the last gym I trained at, although I've never seen in elsewhere. I'm guessing it was a case of monkey-see-monkey-do, and needless to say none of these guys were competitive strength athletes.

"Knee Bend What usually occurs is the back is tried in at the top along with not being strong enough in the top position. What many lifter then do is bend the knees to get finish the pull. In powerlifting, doing this is a violation of the rules (resting the bar on the thighs)." - Kenny Croxdale

I'm familiar with hitching. I've seen that also, but that wasn't what I'm talking about. The exaggerated lean-back I'm talking about is quite deliberate and used on every rep, even on the lightest warmup sets.


Hyperextension

Rounding back deadlift rarely hyperextend (exeggerted lean-back) their back in finishing the pull.

Secondly, "exaggerated lean-back" causation is due to weak glutes.

The glutes role is to drive the hips forward to finish the pull in a standing position.

However, since the glutes are too weak to drive the hips forward, lifters bend their knees and and then hyperextend the "back/exaggerted lean-back" for a finish.

Reinforcing Bad Technique

The reason lifter using light warm up weight hyperextend their back with low loads is they have "Hard Wired" bad technique into their nervous system.

Let me continue to re-iterate this. In an all out effort, technique often falls apart. The body will do whatever it take to insure your survival...getting the weight up.

Continuing to pull/push a load under these conditions (bad technique/finish the pull at any cost), REINFORCES bad technique even with an empty bar.

The key is to know...

When To STOP

Any movement that you want to develop skill in need to be Stopped when technique falls apart.

Building Strength

The irony is that to increase strength and/or size, at some point in a training cycle (meaning infrequently)muscle need to be to failure.

However, pushing an exercise to failure lead to the development of bad technique.

The Solution

1) Utilize disposable/recyclable exercises that are similar in nature to the deadift.

2) Once you trash the auxiliary exercise in a training cycle, find another to replace it.

3) Push auxiliary exercise to failure at some point in the training cycle. The means pull/push the weight up at all cost...No matter how ugly the movement gets.

[/quote]You've Got It Backwards What occurs is that when you fatigue, you form falls apart. Once that happens, STOP the movement!!!" - Kenny Croxdale

I do. I'm not an idiot. [/quote]

Good, then you understand the ramifications of not stopping.

I realize your are not an idiot. You have a limited knowledge in this area.

It remind me of the story of aliens who see a basketball game. They conclude that sitting in the bleacher make you short, playing basketball makes you tall.

The foundation of what you know is based misconceived information about the deadlift that by the uneducated masses who's continue perpetuate myths.

Quote:
The point is I couldn't keep going if I tried.


I am not clear on what this in reference too.

With that said, this topic has been exhausted.

Gook luck to with your program. And keep in mind that successful people make their own luck.

Kenny Croxdale

_________________
Thanks TimD.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:56 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Posts: 4505
Location: Pennsylvania
"Hyperextension
Rounding back deadlift rarely hyperextend (exeggerted lean-back) their back in finishing the pull. Secondly, "exaggerated lean-back" causation is due to weak glutes. The glutes role is to drive the hips forward to finish the pull in a standing position. However, since the glutes are too weak to drive the hips forward, lifters bend their knees and and then hyperextend the "back/exaggerted lean-back" for a finish." - Kenny Croxdale

I don't think you understand what I'm describing. I'm talking about someone who locks out his deadlift and THEN arches way back into the hyperextension range with his hips and knees straight. They're not strugling to finish the lift, because they've already finished the lift.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:13 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3482
"pushing the floor away" allows for a tighter starting position and therefore better start to lift in "some" lifters. I don't think this will necessarily change the muscle firing sequence - this is the point i attempted to make.

If it does i'd be ok with that if it meant a safer and stronger pull.

Again though, coaching cues are just that - coaching cues. Not a reflection on much else other than stuff to say to help people lift or perform better.

KPj

_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:16 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3482
As an example, I use the following cue with one of my clients,

"tickle monster"

Not sure what research would have to say about this, but for her it gets her lats right, keeps the bar closer, and allows her to lift more (she pulls over double b/w.... and "used to" have lower back pain - but not anymore)

Edit: I don't use "tickle monster" with anyone else. I once explained to her that if I were to tickle her under her arms, and she were to try and stop me, how would she do it, and like magic should fired up her lats, and the cue "tickle monster" evolved from there.

_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:46 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Posts: 4505
Location: Pennsylvania
"Good, then you understand the ramifications of not stopping. I realize your are not an idiot. You have a limited knowledge in this area. It remind me of the story of aliens who see a basketball game. They conclude that sitting in the bleacher make you short, playing basketball makes you tall. The foundation of what you know is based misconceived information about the deadlift that by the uneducated masses who's continue perpetuate myths." - Kenny Croxdale

I've read many of the same articles you have and come to slightly different conclusions. I don't see how that makes me any less knowledgeable. Also, I've noticed that some of what you're saying isn't fully supported by the links you're posting. For example, you seem to think that round-back deadlifting is the only way to lift heavy regardless of body type/leverages/etc.

For the record, I don't have a problem with round-back deadlifting, as long as it's done intelligently. However, I don't think one technique is best for everyone, and I know from experience that I'm much stronger pulling with a neutral spine.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:45 pm 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1113
Matt Z wrote:
I don't think you understand what I'm describing. I'm talking about someone who locks out his deadlift and THEN arches way back into the hyperextension range with his hips and knees straight. They're not strugling to finish the lift, because they've already finished the lift.


Then they don't know what they are doing.

The best way to eliminate that problem is "Neck Packing", basically tucking your neck into your chin.

Kenny Croxdale

_________________
Thanks TimD.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group