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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:30 pm 
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I think what I am trying to say is this:

http://deltforce.com/

Is just as good as

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Del ... Raise.html


But you're better off just doing this.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Del ... Raise.html


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:02 pm 
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I said it looked lame because I don't think it would be very effective/practical/useful for its stated purpose, or any other purpose for that matter. That's the difference between a kettlebell and the delt force device. A kettlebell may not be the best choice for all people or all uses, but it works well for it's intended purpose.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:04 pm 
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PS.) If you ask me what I think of something, I'm going to tell you. You don't have to agree with me.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:33 am 
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Chris_A wrote:
So, what can you do for an extra lateral exercise?

Stick a DB in the crook of your elbow and lift away.
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Besides, that little gadget, if you’re creative, could be used for other exercises such as seated Calf Raises, Weighted Crunches, etc.

Yeah, but so could lots of things. Old typewriters, babies, rocks.
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I thought the point of this forum “Training Toys and Accessories” was to show various training toys that you use, you know about, or that are new for the education of everyone that visits the site. How can this site be the ultimate training reference if you don’t cover everything but instead just go over the few things you’re comfortable with or that you like. I didn’t think the point of the forum was to debate and bash when you think something is “lame”. There are many people that think Kettlebells are lame because they have no use for them, or that bodyweight exercise are useless, or that exercise bands are a complete waste, etc, but that doesn’t make them worthless by a long shot.
If I'm wrong in thinking this forum is supposed to be infomrative about new toys or accessories that you may not have heard of before, then please let me know.

So that means that everyone is supposed to like anything that anyone posts? We're obligated to agree with you about everything? If we disagree, or we don't like this gadget, we're not allowed to say so? If we think something is lame we have to beat around the bush?

You really needn't take the responses so seriously. Wouldn't it be more fun to just go along with the jokes? This gadget is really a pretty silly thing for someone to spend $100 on.

I think it's probably well within the purpose of this forum to post lame exercise gadget ads and have a little fun with them.
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Matt Z wrote:
The distance between the weights and your shoulder joint is less than half that of a dumbbell lateral. Consequently, you're going to need a lot more weight to get the same effect. That could get pretty akward for someone who's used to doing laterals with 40 or 50 lb dumbbells.

Who said you would use this tool as the ONLY exercise.

No one.
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Bodybuilders are very familiar with techniques such as supersets, drop sets, pre-exhaustion, etc.

I'm not getting the relevance of this. Sorry. How can you do those techniques any better with this thing than with a dumbell?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:40 am 
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Ironman wrote:
I think what I am trying to say is this:

http://deltforce.com/

Is just as good as

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Del ... Raise.html


But you're better off just doing this.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Del ... Raise.html


Yeah, but with Delt Force you get "4 different Shoulder-Blasting exercises, professional body-builders’ photo exercise chart Not available in Stores"

Can your dumbbells match that?

Hmmm... I'm not sure if its the professional body-bulders' photo exercise chart or the Delt Force itself that is not available in stores. But either way....


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:47 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
Stick a DB in the crook of your elbow and lift away.

You can't be serious. Obviously you have never tried that. I have, and it sucks. You can't lower your arm all the way down because the dumbbell hits you in the ribs and obliques, and if you raise it too high, the DB tries to roll out. Not to mention it's horribly uncomfortable.

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Yeah, but so could lots of things. Old typewriters, babies, rocks.

Or a bulldog. Sadly, none of those creative ideas work with the plates on my plate-tree. :roll:

Anyway, I'm not even sure I'd buy this thing. I just posted it because I just heard of it and thought it was a neat interpretation of the $4,000 lever machines. Someone out there might actually like having all the toys, and if I did have this device, I know I'd welcome the variety it offered over the single Lateral exercise of DB Laterals day-in and day-out ad nauseum.

Certainly there are those that like having all the Entertainment toys such as the HD TV, the Blu-ray player, the 7.1 surround sound, the 5 disc CD changer, the MP3 dock, DVR, etc. Then again, there those that are perfectly happy with a 25 inch CRT TV with monaural sound. One man's toy is another man's waste of money.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:50 pm 
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Heres my opinion on the device. It will do the job but it is unneccissary and a silly thing to spend money on. You would have to use nearly double the weight for that device and I can't imagine how difficult it would be to get that on your shoulder in the first place. Buy yourself some sets of dumbells which you can use for many exercises and be done with it.

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So that means that everyone is supposed to like anything that anyone posts?
Yes, I demand that you like everything I write, I will ban you if you don't....j/k


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:59 pm 
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ironmaiden708 wrote:
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So that means that everyone is supposed to like anything that anyone posts?
Yes, I demand that you like everything I write, I will ban you if you don't....j/k


[Note to self: always agree with ironmaden!] :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:28 pm 
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I just think machines should be used very sparingly. That is because most of them are not that effective. Free weights are just way better. There is LOADS of mythology in bodybuilding. It is by far the most mythology laden sport ever. There could be more in baseball, but in that sport people know it's just superstition. Bodybuilding is about doing your workout, and then spending twice as much time doing useless exercises that do nothing. All because they think they grow from it. They don't. In a nutshell, these are the steps.

Eat big
lift heavy free weights
done.
If you do that you keep growing as long as your genetics let you.

Notice doing 5 different pointless exercises for each each individual muscle is not on the list.

It's not because it's such a bad device. It's just a device used for a bad way of working out. The point is you don't want to let endless sets cable crossovers take away from the number of sets of dumbbell bench you do. You don't want to load up on auxiliary exercises in general, that way you can do more of the core lifts.

Even with steroids you can only do so much. Only people with exceptional genetics have the superhuman recovery powers of the Olympians.

So I guess this is more of pet peve really.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:04 pm 
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I agree with Ironman. For example, I used to do Squats, Sissy Squats and Leg Extensions for quads. Since then I've found that squats alone are just as effective.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:48 pm 
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Ironman wrote:
Even with steroids you can only do so much. Only people with exceptional genetics have the superhuman recovery powers of the Olympians.


Everyone is different, and it must be noted that there are many that respond well, and sometimes only, to high volume training. I've tried lower volume training, recently as a matter of fact, and I couldn't handle it. It was too little, and I felt lazy, and was actually backsliding.

In the bodybuilding world, multiple angles of work, multiple exercises, and multiple methods of attack are the norm. In the bodybuilding world, variety is key. It always has been.

V---A---R---I---E---T---Y

With a shoulder routine, you are looking to incorporate 2 exercises per delt head. Anterior Delts have many exercises. Posterior Delts have many. Laterals don’t. How do you get more variety into such a limited exercise set? Machines of course.

No one said drop free weights for machines. ADD the machines for extra work. Obviously, extra work means more growth, thus you are able to fill out a lagging body part.

Do a DB Lateral raise for 8-10 reps then immediately superset it with a lighter weight on the Lateral Raise machine. That’s variety and extra work.

On the other hand, You could also do drop sets with nothing but DBs. Do the DB Lateral Raise to failure, drop the weight and do it again to failure, then drop the weight and do it again to failure. Yes, that is a valid option. But is it one you want to do every single routine? Not really, you want some variety.

Let’s be honest here, you can get a good workout with nothing but a barbell and some plates. You can even do isolation work with a barbell. Upright Rows for Lateral Delts, Overhead Extensions for Triceps, Curls for Biceps, Overhead Press for Anterior Delts, One Arm Rows (shove one end of BB into a corner) for Posterior Delts, Standing Calf Raises (hold one end of BB in hand), etc, etc, etc.

Clearly, all you need is a Barbell and some plates. Yet, we all have Dumbbells as well (I have four DB handles with collars). What about a high pulley for front pulldowns? And a rope attachment for triceps pressdowns. And a V-Bar for CG pulldowns. And a D Handle for reverse grip pressdowns. Or how about an EZ Bar for Curls and Skullcrushers.

Nice stuff, but really not needed since you can get a full workout, including auxiliary work with only a Barbell.

Unless, of course, you would like some VARIETY and some extra work for a lagging body part.

I know there are a lot of people here that are proponents of the big three lifts and doing those in 3x5s or 5x5s for power. I know there is an inclination here to full body training only and that isolation work is shied away from as if it were a leprosy infected mass of rotting meat.

That’s all well and good, but it is only one point of view to the iron game. If you’re a newbie with less than a year’s experience, by all means, stick to the full body compound movements. When you first start, you will make gains no matter what you do.

But, there is another side to the iron game. There are those of us that have years of training under the belt and are looking to specifically target parts of our body in order to achieve better symmetry. The quest for well rounded symmetry in the bodybuilding world has nothing to do with explosive power or compound movements. It’s about multiple angles of attack that require lighter weights with strict isolation work.

It’s a different world from the power lifters, but it is still a valid one. You say you’re seriously into bodybuilding? Then you should be fully aware of how to use machines and various tools for hitting a muscle from different angles. How to use supersets and drop sets. And you should know that the bodybuilding world does not do away with free weights. No. Bodybuilding is high volume work, so machines are ADDED to free weight exercises. Extra work and variety are the keys to growth and avoiding plateaus in the bodybuilding world.

But hey, different strokes for different folks right?

And wow, this thread has gone nuts. I've said all I can. Some may never understand the bodybuilding POV, but I hope I've expressed that this thread was about adding VARIETY to a routine as well as extra work. I never meant for it infer that basic free weights and compound movements are to be done away with. So, thats all I've got. :grin:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:29 pm 
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The Gospel according to Joe ..... Praise be to Weider


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:31 pm 
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Seriously though, if I recomend something it's going to be either:
A) Something that's worked well for me.
B) Something that's likely to work well for most people.

Preferably both.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:34 pm 
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By the way, there are many different ways to add variety to a program without including everything but the k-word sink in a single workout. For example, you might try periodization or changing exercises every couple of weeks (or whenever gains start to slow down).


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:40 pm 
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Like many other people here I've tried the high-volume/isolation-heavy route, and learned through experience that I can get better results (both mass and strength) with just a few major compound lifts.


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