lol, that study definitely applies to steve austin. Maybe they used him?
Chris_A wrote:
You can't do it to near the same degree as on a smith machine. It's not possible to push your feet 10 or more inches forward in front of you and lean back into the bar with a regular barbell. But, there are other ways to work glutes and hams. Maybe even better ways. The point was, the Smith Machine can be a handy tool, and biomechanical models show the Smith "Glute Squat" is easy on the knees and will not F*** your knees up.
One study using a model of a human knee, created by humans who don't fully understand the human body yet, doesn't mean anything against all the other info out there opposing it.
There's loads of better ways to work your glutes and hams, that's why you've had so much grief from recommending it. I accept a Smith Machine may 'have it's place', but the thought and site of people squatting on it makes me cringe.
When you do a smith machine squat with feet out, what angle will your shins be at when your 'in the hole'? I'm genuinely asking. When you box squat with proper form, your shins will be around perpendicular. Some guys with very strong posterior chains can box squat to a level where there shins go further back then perpendicular (the opposite direction of 'knees over toes'). I would be interested to compare shin angles on a smith squat w/ feet out to a box squat performed properly. Or even an experienced PL free squating because the angle there shins are at when the free squat is not far off perpendicular. So whilst you can'tmove your feet forward in a free squat, you CAN move the rest of your body back, hence, 'sit back', when you squat.
It sounds to me like you don't get what I mean by squatting with the glutes and hams. I would advise you to learn the box squat, it's not just a PL exercise. Cressey has said in an article that next to DL's the box squat trains the posterior chain more than anything else. I hope I don't sound like a smart a$$. I thought the quads were the biggest squatting muscles up until about 18 months ago. And it probably took me about 4 months to finally learn and get the strength to 'sit back' in a squat.
Chris_A wrote:
See, that's the interesting thing about a debate like this. If you rely on a well respected coach/trainer that happens to agree with a less than accepted approach, then he gets discredited. That's the pick and chose thing I was talking about.
I agree. I think there's probably a study and/or article that will back up just about any point, be it a stupid point or a good point... You just need to use your own judgement and that will always lead to debate, and that's probably why we're all here.
In that particular example, though, I feel it's a 'no brainer'. When it comes to something like the smith machine, I think that Dr Squat quote is the first time I personally have seen anyone well respected (as a coach, and not just a lifter) say it's any good. It's also part of a product description.
When one person makes a claim that goes against what most would advise, you need to question it, whether it's Dr Squat, Eric Cressey, or Poliquin. Same with studies, one well carried out study means nothing in my opinion. There's too many variables to rely on just one or two, you need a lot. Either that or one or two studies, some good coaches who advise the same, and even better, personal experience before you make a judgement.
Chris_A wrote:
So, Poliquin, a well respected authority in training, says that a Leg Extension machine has its uses, he advocates a gunz day to build up your show muscles, and he pushes supplements. He’s starting to sound like that Joe guy. I like him!! lol
No one was talking about leg extensions, and no one criticised body part splits. It's only stupid body part splits that get criticised on here and normally beginners who do body part splits.....
Chris_A wrote:
What I meant by hypocrisy is how some people rely on certain gym lore and totally disregard others. They pick the parts they like such as how to squat, what rep range to use, etc, and discredit parts they don't like such as isolation exercises, machine use, multiple exercise per body part, etc.
Well, I don't know who does this, but me personally, I recommend and use all rep ranges. I squat every way - box squat, PL squat, Anderson squats, from pins, front squats, OH squats, Full deep OL type squats, close stance squats.
I use anything from 8 x 1 to 4 x 15. Most people, beginners especially and most people who ask for advise on this board do quarter squats in the same rep range they have used since they started. My biggest recommendation is something different. The only people i've seen who you could say don't need any posterior chain work are the guys in the local PL club, other than that, you can pretty much encourage anyone to hit the posterior chain more. It may not seem like it, but ALL of my recommendations are general recommendations, you just can't get specific over the net. Whether it's strength or posture related, I basically recommend more rows, DLs, and squats, and single leg work - posterior chain and external rotation focus. You can't go wrong with that for 99% of people, it's common sense.
There's also a common misconception that weight lifting = bodybuilding. Some people who lift weights use a body part split and they're not even interesting in bodybuilding, or getting huge because it's the only way they know how to train. I know about 3-4 MMA guys who train like body builders between fights because they think that's the only way to bulk up. Well, they'll bulk up all right - they'll get the job done. But will they have any sport specific carryover? They could easily get the job done AND get some carryover if they trained differently. BBing is a sport in itself and should be treated as such. A beginner should not do a body part split, should limit isolation exercises and machines use, and concentrate on building a foundation with the big lifts. It's normally beginners who ask the question in the first place.
Advice, regardless of the goals, should depend largely if not fully on experience. Body part splits get recommended too much, too often, not hear but just about every where else. It doesn't make body part splits bad.
KPj
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