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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:30 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Chris_A wrote:
No, not what I said or the point.


So, what exactly was the point, then? Why is it hypocritical to claim to only want to lift heavy but not care about muscle appearance and but still worry about diet and hygiene?

That's what it sounds like you are saying. And it just sounds goofy...like you're using hyperbole to make a point. If you want to say that it's annoying for people to claim they don't care about appearance but then do lots of vanity-boosting activities specifically to achieve what they claim not to care about, just say that. Yes, saying "I'm not vain and my appearance is totally unimportant" and then doing pump sets for the biceps, waxing your bikini line and hitting the tanning salon is probably signs of hypocritical behavior. But I think you humorously overshot the point, so I took a shot at it.

I mean, I like how I look. I make an effort to stay clean, attractive, well-groomed. I try to avoid the standard disfiguring side-effects of MMA - cauliflower ears, smashes nose, that "fighter's face" from too much leather scraping the skin. I like that lifting makes me more physically appealing. But I'd trade it for performance, if I could. Nicely, I don't have to. It just comes with what I need for performance, but it's secondary. So yeah, I'd say "I just want to fight better, whatever it takes, appearance is a bonus if it comes" but I also brush my teeth and keep my hair neat. It doesn't seem like it's in the same boat. And I don't pick on bodybuilders, I just don't do the same sport as them.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:17 am 
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pdellorto wrote:
Chris_A wrote:
No, not what I said or the point.


So, what exactly was the point, then? Why is it hypocritical to claim to only want to lift heavy but not care about muscle appearance and but still worry about diet and hygiene?

That's what it sounds like you are saying. And it just sounds goofy...like you're using hyperbole to make a point. If you want to say that it's annoying for people to claim they don't care about appearance but then do lots of vanity-boosting activities specifically to achieve what they claim not to care about, just say that. Yes, saying "I'm not vain and my appearance is totally unimportant" and then doing pump sets for the biceps, waxing your bikini line and hitting the tanning salon is probably signs of hypocritical behavior. But I think you humorously overshot the point, so I took a shot at it.

I mean, I like how I look. I make an effort to stay clean, attractive, well-groomed. I try to avoid the standard disfiguring side-effects of MMA - cauliflower ears, smashes nose, that "fighter's face" from too much leather scraping the skin. I like that lifting makes me more physically appealing. But I'd trade it for performance, if I could. Nicely, I don't have to. It just comes with what I need for performance, but it's secondary. So yeah, I'd say "I just want to fight better, whatever it takes, appearance is a bonus if it comes" but I also brush my teeth and keep my hair neat. It doesn't seem like it's in the same boat. And I don't pick on bodybuilders, I just don't do the same sport as them.


That was a very nice, honest, and thorough explanation of your POV. And it can be seen that you do appreciate what weight training does for your appearance. Bodybuilders just take that appreciation to the next level…..and then compete with it.

But there are hypocrites out there that try to say aesthetics have nothing to do with anything in life, yet they do. The “I don’t care what I look like as long as I lift heavy” falls apart on close scrutiny, which is what I wanted to point out. I’ve got my psychological profile POV on that, but that is neither here nor there.

Really, it’s just a very old PL vs BB POV. PLs always say they are as “strong as they look” and BBs always say they are fat tanks, etc, etc, etc. It’s old, old, old, and the hypocrisy gets on my nerves. Face it, we all care about how we look. And we all like what weight training does for our appearance.

Plus, believe it or not, even bodybuilders love the fact that they are strong. I love grabbing a 100lb DB and moving it around with one hand when friends come over. I play a game with the kids in the neighborhood where I let them try to pick up various DBs and then I pick them up. The kids ooh and ahh and then want to train. I’ve caught them outdoors doing pushups and pull-ups and ask them what they’re doing. They saying getting strong and big like you. So I help them. It’s very satisfying.

Aesthetics are nice, but strength is also appreciated and a big part of it as well. :grin:


Last edited by Chris_A on Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:21 am 
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Now, back on track, I have a HUGE pet peeve with people and grilling. I see so many people using aluminum foil on a grill. ARGH!

There is no place for foil on a grill. Maybe a slow cook smoker….and I really disagree with that as well for the most part. If you’re going to use foil, then just put it in the oven. The foil blocks the flavors of a live fire, so you may as well use a controlled electrical device and save your money on that coal and wood. Really, learn your coals, learn your air vents, control the heat, and grill or smoke with no foil! There is nothing out there that can’t be cooked without foil with proper technique. Stop it already! :eek:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:47 am 
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I'll argue that too. Foil is really good for grilling fish, because fish usually flake apart as they cook, which is bad on a grill. Put them on foil, though (or wrap them) and it'll cook up nicely without disintegrating! This is less true for fish with skin that'll hold them together like mackerel, or for squid, but for flaky fish like perch or swordfish, it's usually better to put it on something that will keep them intact.

Otherwise, yeah...I hate watching people grill aluminum foil on an open grill without a good reason. Fish? Sure. Want some steamed veggies so you wet them and wrap them? Okay? Burgers and hot dogs and chicken thighs? Why even grill?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:43 am 
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Chris_A wrote:
Nice rant KPJ, and I’d like to add that I get sick to death of people constantly thinking that only compound PL exercises are going to lead to perfect symmetry in muscle development. It’s impossible. Not only will a larger muscle in a compound exercise receive the brunt of the work, but genetics also come to play. I get so sick of people just saying “Do this and you’ll grow plenty”. Huh? Grow where?


Um...grow everywhere. I agree with you to an extent, I'm not against 'isolation', and definitely not against bodybuilding, but I think a lot of people are too quick to recommend typical pre contest work out routines. The people most likely to ask how to get bigger are the people most likely to need the basics more than anything else. Mostly compound exercises will bring out a lot of muscles, there's always going to be some lagging muscles, and those would need more direct work, but you need to stick to the basics FIRST.

That was sort of the point to my whole rant, there's not THAT much of a difference between 'weight lifters', especially at the beginning stages. in my post i used an example of a competing bodybuilder telling me at least 2 years ago I had too many isolation exercises, too much pressing, needed to dead lift etc. I now take his advice despite my goal being PL. However, i'm sure if I spoke to him with several years training under my belt and a lot of over all mass built from that, he would of said "yeah. you need to bring out this more, and that more, and more direct work here etc etc".

Basically, I don't think training experience is considered enough before advice is given. 140lb beginners need dead lifts, squats, lot's and lot's of rows and pressing before they think about bringing out their upper chest or lateral delts or whatever.

Chris_A wrote:
Of course, there are plenty of people that say “I don’t care what I look like, I want to lift heavy”. Fine. Then why bother brushing your hair, or your teeth, or wearing clean clothes? Why bother with a diet. Just eat all you want; getting fat won’t stop you from lifting heavy. Yeah......total hypocrisy.


Don't really understand where this came from. For starters, you need a good diet to support a good performance, not necessarily anything to do with aesthetics. You can still CARE about aesthetics without training like a body builder or making aesthetics a goal in your training at all. Lift heavy stuff and eat a clean diet that supports performance, and you'll have a good physique. A world apart from the non lifter, but you won't win any BB comps.

And believe it or not, some PL, OL, or other athletes, actually couldn't care less about how their body looks, but as has already been pointed out, this is much different from hygiene. I don't get why it's so difficult to understand that outside of bodybuilding, you have lifters who don't care about symmetry, proportion between delt heads, arm size, how their tan is coming along or whether the leopard skinned posing pouch should be worn, or just stick to star spangled banner ones :wink:

OK the last ones were just cheeky, but, as I said, i'm not against bodybuilding, and I have a lot of respect for bodybuilders. The point to my whole rant is that we're all, regardless of goals, a lot more similar than people think.

KPj


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:01 am 
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Chris, your right about the foil. Even for fish. I have a a flat plate with holes in it specially for doing fish and veg. The holes are small enough to keep things from falling through, yet allow everthing else from falling through. Another thing along those lines, grilling and BBQ are NOT the same. I grill on a hibachi. I do my BBQ in a Weber kettle, bank the coals and wood on one side, put a drip pan in on the other with some lquid, slap the lid on it, finesse the vents for around 259 and let her rip, low and slow, add lots of smoke.
Tim


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:07 am 
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TimD wrote:
I do my BBQ in a Weber kettle, bank the coals and wood on one side, put a drip pan in on the other with some lquid, slap the lid on it, finesse the vents for around 259 and let her rip, low and slow, add lots of smoke.
Tim


Could I come over for supper? Or at least for a few lessons?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:14 am 
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After 2 hours of bar-b-queing ribs, I wrap them in foil and cook for another hour.
After 5 hours of bar-b-queing brisket, I wrap it in foil and cook for another 3-5 hours.

Sorry Chris. I used to not use foil, but I have to admit, it does make it more tender.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:48 am 
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So... are ALL weightlifters expert at grilling/barbecuing? Is it like, a requirement?

Maybe that's why I'm not progressing as fast as I'd like. Maybe I should buy a book....


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:04 pm 
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I won't say I'm an expert and I wouldn't recommend ribs or brisket to lose weight, but it sure does taste good. Grilling (not BBQ) is an easy and healthy way to cook, especially if you have a gas grill. It doesn't taste as good as on a wood fire, but it sure makes cooking fast. I will say this, cook a 12 pound brisket and you'll eat like a king with lots of protein for a couple of days.

Watch out. We are highjacking this thread.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:51 pm 
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A hobby of mine is trying out all of the barbecue places in New York ... ever use a log as a grill? Once camping we just put a log across the fire and roasted our steak on that ... "What the heck, it's sterile" ... I care about how I look up to a point; I guess I'll never have a 32-inch waist, but since I lift heavy, well ... let's just say it's a trade-off. I'm what they used to call "husky."

And speaking of husky, I went to the World's Strongest Man competition (Super Series) at the Garden on Saturday. Big boys....


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:06 pm 
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Watch out. We are highjacking this thread.
Nah, this is an off topic thread so it doesn't matter and its related somewhat to Chris' pet peeve. Everythings fair game as long as we don't start discussing Harry Potter...

mmmmmm... Beer Can Chicken.....


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:01 pm 
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Excellent, but you end up wasting some beer.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:53 pm 
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Excellent, but you end up wasting some beer.
Whoa Whoa Whoa, hold the phone, take a step back. Think what you said through. Have you ever had slow cooked beer can chicken before? So tender that the legs fall off while its propped on the stand. Crunchy and flavorful skin. If you havn't then you have to have it ASAP or the rest of your self will be dismal.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:24 pm 
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There is only one way to settle this - BBQ contest!


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