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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:10 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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I agree that the Stones and Beetles both used drugs and included drug references in their lyrics. That's why I used Elvis to make my point. Still, I think KPj is right Hendrix and the Doors were more blatant about it, and that's probably why they took more heat it.

It's actually really funny how little most people seem to pick up from songs they've heard dozens of times each. For example, most people seem to miss the racist lyrics in "Sweet Home Alabama."

Likewise, this conversation reminds me of an argument I once had with an ex-girlfriend. We were listening to the radio and "Enter the Sandman" came on. She complained that "That song is so violent". The next song to come on was by Sublime. She didn't seem to think it was violent at all, not even the part about shoving a 45 down Sancho's throat. When I pointed this out to her, she had no answer.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:38 am 
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Matt Z wrote:
It's actually really funny how little most people seem to pick up from songs they've heard dozens of times each. For example, most people seem to miss the racist lyrics in "Sweet Home Alabama."


:?: What racist lyrics :?:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:46 pm 
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I don't see any racist lyrics in it, however, since it was a response to "Southern Man" which was scathing in it's condemnation of racism, I suppose one could suggest that it was racist by ommission.

Edit:Actually, the Birmingham/governor reference is clearly racist.
http://www.thrasherswheat.org/jammin/lynyrd.htm


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:53 pm 
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stuward wrote:
I don't see any racist lyrics in it, however, since it was a response to "Southern Man" which was scathing in it's condemnation of racism, I suppose one could suggest that it was racist by ommission.

Edit:Actually, the Birmingham/governor reference is clearly racist.
http://www.thrasherswheat.org/jammin/lynyrd.htm


Hmmm....that’s an interesting POV. In taking a shot at Neil Young, do you think they were endorsing what Neil Young was condemning (both in the song “Southern Man” and the song “Alabama”)?

Or, was Lynyrd Skynyrd simply speaking up to say that not all southerners, which Lynyrd Skynyrd was, are racist rednecks so get over the sweeping generalizations? As Van Zant himself said, he felt Neil was shooting all the ducks in order to kill one or two.

Van Zant even said they wrote the song as a joke with no real thought to the lyrics.

As for the governor line, they sing

In Birmingham they love the governor, boo, boo, boo
Now we all did what we could do

Boo is universally understood to express disapproval. So Skynyrd themselves disapprove of the Governor and what he attempted to do in Birmingham. And in expressing their disapproval of the governor, they’ve done “what we could do”.

Then again, it could be a facetious slam against Wallace. When Wallace tried to stop black students from enrolling in Huntsville schools, a Federal Court in Birmingham intervened. So Birmingham had lots of “love” for Wallace and his antics all right.

But as you can see, there is so much room for interpretation of what the “hidden meaning” of the song is that it should be obvious there isn’t anything directly racist in the song. Depending on one’s interpretation, you could believe that there is a hidden racists message, but you could also argue that there is not.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:00 pm 
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Chris_A wrote:
...As for the governor line, they sing

In Birmingham they love the governor, boo, boo, boo
Now we all did what we could do

Boo is universally understood to express disapproval. So Skynyrd themselves disapprove of the Governor and what he attempted to do in Birmingham. And in expressing their disapproval of the governor, they’ve done “what we could do”....



The tone of the boo, boo, boo was sarcastic, as if make fun of those that would criticize the governor. I don't think you could suggest that the boo's were serious.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:23 pm 
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stuward wrote:
The tone of the boo, boo, boo was sarcastic, as if make fun of those that would criticize the governor. I don't think you could suggest that the boo's were serious.


Sure you can.

In Birmingham they love the governor, boo, boo, boo
Now we all did what we could do
Now Watergate does not bother me
Does your conscience bother you?
Tell the truth

Van Zant says “they” (as in other people in Birmingham) love the governor, then says boo meaning Lynyrd Skynyrd, a southern rock band comprised of southern men and women say boo to that. And so, as other songs have done, they have expressed political disapproval which is "what we could do". And seriously, what else could they do about Wallace? They are a band, and as such, they sing. So they sang boo toward the governor.

But the lyrics at that point go on to say:

Now Watergate does not bother me
Does your conscience bother you?
Tell the truth

Let’s suppose that Van Zant is talking to Neil Young directly here. Watergate is a widely known incident.....just like racism in the South. Van Zant says Watergate doesn’t bother him, and that is because he did not participate in Watergate, thus he has a clear conscience on the matter in knowing he was not involved. With such a clear conscience, there is no need to write a song about. This also means he has a clear conscience on racism as he is not involved in it. However, Neil Young wrote Southern Man and Alabama, both about racism, so Van Zant is asking if Neil Young is in fact a racist himself and does his conscience bother him.

Clearly not racist since Van Zant is saying, point blank, that he has a clear conscience on racism because he is not involved in it.

But, I guess in the end, you can see whatever you want in that song.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:16 pm 
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I think you're missing some of the historical context. When Governor Wallace opposed the forced de-segregation of Alabama, many white southerners protested IN SUPPORT OF Wallace.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:25 pm 
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Also, I'm not sure where this website is getting Watergate. I always thought the line was ...

Now what I did does not bother me.
Does your conscience bother you?
[/i]


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:22 pm 
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Matt Z wrote:
I think you're missing some of the historical context. When Governor Wallace opposed the forced de-segregation of Alabama, many white southerners protested IN SUPPORT OF Wallace.


But what does that have to do with the song? And since I live in Alabama, born and raised, I'm rather familiar with our history. :grin:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:35 pm 
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"But what does that have to do with the song?" - Chris_A

Music doesn't exist in a vacuum. Context is important.

Many people (myself included) will argue that "we all did what we could do" is a reference to the pro-segregation protests that acompanied forced de-segregation.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:15 pm 
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LOL, I'm reading this and didn't even know you two were old enough to remember Gov Wallace, and when his wife took over Gov ship from him. I'm impressed. As to the Skynard song, it's probably the best thing they ever wrote. As I recall, the wrote it back in 72 or 73, in response to Neil Young's Souther Man as a joke, and got catapulted into rock stardom.
Tim


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:39 am 
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Skynyrd is kind of a liberal band as southern rock goes. I don't see them being racist. Plus the song sounds like they really don't like that governor or Neil Young. I never really did like that song very much. I thought That Smell, Simple Man and Freebird were so much better.

I think the watergate thing was sarcastic too. I think they were asking if the people involved (Or Republicans in general) had a conscience at all. They are Democrats after all.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:47 am 
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I started posting this in the following thread - http://exrx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4 ... c&start=30

But it's not all that relevant. I just felt like going on a rant so this thread is more appropriate.

What i always shake my head at is all this, "power lifters this, body builders that". Like bodybuilders are some sort of super human race that need 20 exercises per body part otherwise they will neglect certain angles of each muscle and not achieve proper development. And powerlifters are just fat hairy guys who bench squat and deadlift every time they're in the gym, then go to mcdonalds and get some more trans fats 'cause trans fats makes big bellies and big bellies decrease ROM. And if you ain't a fat power lifter then you ain't a powerlifter.

Olympic lifters don't get much flack, though. Either because people that hoover up myths don't know the difference between PL and OL or maybe since you don't get many fat OL's, so they're mistaken for bodybuilders?

This is triggered mostly by comments in the commercial gym i train in. "your looking bigger... thought you weren't into all this body building stuff!"...........
* stare blankly and contemplate whipping him with my dipping belt *

Like if you squat, dead lift, front squat, do weighted pull ups, heavy benching, rows, and variations of the same, then your not going to add a little bit of mass? These guys are meant to be qualified to train people. I dread to think....

Tim has described before how before bodybuilding went mainstream, 'weightlifters' all trained out of the same gyms, and used each others techniques to help each others goals. I've been told the same thing, a few times by people of different back grounds.

In my training 'career', and especially in the last 18 months or so, i've had the pleasure of training with many different people. My town seems to be a stop and go for strange travelers. Strange specimens of people come in for a month or so and never leave again - serious lifters that clearly train a lot. I've trained with a 'competitive' bodybuilder - the real, genetically gifted juiced up kind. I've trained with a 66 year old ex olympic lifter, who - btw - curled 50lbs DB's like it was air. Couldn't believe my eyes. He taught me how to clean & jerk. Rugby players, i'm friendly with couple of competing OL, who train out of the same club that represented Scotland in the commonwealth games (this is in my home town). I obviously train with powerlifters quite regularly.

Everytime I train with someone, like the proper competing BB, or the old timer OL, I shut up and listen, and watch. It's amazing how similar the advice has been. The Bodybuilder in question used to live a few streets away from me. When I trained with him, it was a couple of years ago, i was still doing stupid body part splits and benching like a maniac. I remember he told me I done too much isolation. He taught me the bent over row, and the dead lift, stating that the dead lift alone put most of the mass on his back. I ignored the DL advice. He told me I done too much isolation, and too much benching (i ignored this, too). He told me I need to Row more, A LOT more. Again, I ignored this part. Get rid of my chest day? Don't be stupid!

I don't see him anymore, but now I want to powerlift and not get heavier. Interestingly, i'm now taking his advice, although he was a bodybuilder...

To cap off my seemingly endless rant, here's 2 articles,

Powerlifting for Bodybuilder
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=687933

Bodybuilding for Powerlifters (check pics of Dave Gulledge in this article!)
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=727966

I'm done. * passes out *

KPj


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:45 pm 
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FWIW KPj, I describe what we do as similar to what car buffs do. Some like hot rods, some like muscle cars, some drag, some like show cars, hell, you even have to have respect for the low riders. You may not like some of the things the other guys are doing, but you still have mad respect for them because you know the work and dedication that went into it.

Your rant reminds me of two of my favorite lifting sayings. I read them both on T-nation and wish I could accurately quote and give credit it to the author. The first is something like everything works... at least for a little while. The other is when someone asked a trainer do you think this workout will work. He tells them try it for six weeks and let him know.

Finally, when someone is bigger, stronger, looks better than me, has more experience, more accomplished, doing something different that what I have seen before, etc, I just shut up and listen.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:25 pm 
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Nice rant KPJ, and I’d like to add that I get sick to death of people constantly thinking that only compound PL exercises are going to lead to perfect symmetry in muscle development. It’s impossible. Not only will a larger muscle in a compound exercise receive the brunt of the work, but genetics also come to play. I get so sick of people just saying “Do this and you’ll grow plenty”. Huh? Grow where?

Look at Arnold that could blow up his chest just by thinking about, but he had to hit his calves up to 4 times a week with high reps, multiple exercises, and super heavy weights in order to get them to grow. I’ve seen so many bench jockeys knocking out heavy bench after heavy bench and they end up with HUGE anterior delts. To their credit, they do heavy rows, but still have deflated posterior delts. Look at them in a double bi pose from behind, and the anterior delts look great.......and then the shoulder just whimpers and tapers off to nothing. Completely unbalanced, but he sure is strong.

I was watching Gene Simmon’s Family Jewels last month, and Carrot Top (a comedian) came to pick Gene up. It’s obvious Carrot Top has been working out.....and it’s obvious he is a bench jockey. His anterior delts were so huge that it looked like he had implants or he had been shooting synthol. But his lateral and posterior delts were all but non existent. I bet he was strong in the bench though.

Of course, there are plenty of people that say “I don’t care what I look like, I want to lift heavy”. Fine. Then why bother brushing your hair, or your teeth, or wearing clean clothes? Why bother with a diet. Just eat all you want; getting fat won’t stop you from lifting heavy. Yeah......total hypocrisy.

As for Olympic Lifters, the hardcore competitors actually develop well rounded physiques that are on par with a bodybuilder. Look at Le Maosheng for example. Olympic Lifting is rather impressive in what it can do for full body development.


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