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Self defence is a basic human right.
I strongly agree. 93%  93%  [ 26 ]
I somewhat agree. 7%  7%  [ 2 ]
I disagree. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 28
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:09 am 
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I strongly agreed.

I'm in Scotland, where you can't carry a gun around with you. It's quite a hassle just to possess one in your house, you need a license, the correct storage equipment, no criminal record - Come to think of it, it would take too long to get your gun if you had to.. Guns are a lot less common over here. I understand gun crime is on the increase, especially in some parts of England, but in general guns are almost unheard of. It became even more difficult years ago after the "Dunblane massacre" when 16 children and one adult were shot dead, and the attacker took his own life.

The big thing here is Knifes. Especially Glasgow, which is about 20 miles from me. The problem isn't so much the people attacking you, it's the fact that for all you know, they could easily have a knife. As an example, in my town, a gang of youths were kicking around the streets, drinking... One 14 year old boy took a bottle of alcohol from a 15 year old. The 15 year old just stabbed and killed him, over a drink. It's not very common for them to be so young, normally a few years older, but the circumstances are very common.

Mindless violence is the biggest issue here. I'm sure you have your equivalent across the pond, but in Scotland, we have 'Neds', in England, they gave 'Chavs' - They're the same thing. Young boys and girls who kick around the streets, drinking ,taking drugs, destroying things and each other... And getting involved in mindless violence.

So you can be walking to your local shop with your girlfriend and they'l approach you. If your smart, you'll know from the body language that their now going to wait for the right moment or look for an excuse to attack you. The famous one is 'what you looking at', even if you don't look. No matter what you respond, you'll get something like "you got a problem"... Their just waiting for a 'F**K OFF' from you, so they can get angry and hit you. Sometimes they come right up, and will just head butt you - that's like a trademark thing in Scotland lol. Another common one is that you will be hit by the person beside the one in front of you.

In my opinion, you 'defend' yourself as soon as their 'in range'. Their going to go for you anyway. When it comes to the law, generally back ground reports will clear you.

Hit them before they hit you, or run, but don't hesitate whatever you decide. That's my opinion.

A few months ago, a good friend of mine wakened very early, about 5:30am. He decided to go to our local shop for a newspaper, as it opened at 6. When he got their, a gang of 'neds' were blocking the entry to the shop. So he waited at a near by bus stop for them to go. Then they walked up to him (about 10-15 of them), asked if he had a problem, and one hit him over the head with a chain (from the side). They all started hitting him with chains and sticks then ran away. They were all 15-16 years old, clearly been out all night, and stayed in a neighboring town. They didn't really do any damage before they ran off... but it happens that easily.

If you train and have half a clue how to fight, your good for about 3-4 of them on your own. Their always skinny and frail... Only problem is, there's usually 10-20 of them, and they can be armed with anything from knifes to chains, to extendable battons.. to belts (hit you with the buckle)...

KPj


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:38 pm 
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"Yea, I meant that non-lethal ammunition would be better." - Wouter

I presume your refering to rubber bullets and "bean bag" rounds. Police use these mainly for dispersing roiters, along with things like tear gas and water cannons. They're useful for their intended purpose, but not very good for stopping a determined attacker.

Tazers are much better, but they also have their drawbacks:
A) They're expensive.
B) Their range is limited to about 20 feet (sometimes less).
C) You only get one or two shots.
D) They don't always penetrate heavy winter clothing.
E) They must be kept fully charged.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:53 am 
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I think something like this should be better:
http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm, go to Law Enforcement, then Less Lethal: FN 303
Civilians can't buy it but it's certainly better than the tazer. You might be able to buy it on the black market though and just replace your tazer with this.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:29 am 
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That would be good for crowd control at a distance but a tazer is for up close one on one. I would think that the non-lethal projectile would be more dangerous than the tazer close up.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:59 pm 
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Wouter, the link you gave is a product advertisement. I'd like to see some independent research before betting my life on an unproven technology. I'd also be interested in factors like cost, durability, reliability, service life, the cost and availability of amunition and air tanks, the cost and availability of replacement parts, etc. Additionally, I can tell from the company litterature that the device you suggested is much too large for concealed carry.

By the way, I never said I have a Tazer. I don't. I do however have a number of firearms all of which were purchased legally.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:04 pm 
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"I would think that the non-lethal projectile would be more dangerous than the tazer close up." Stuward

Actually, rubber bullets and bean bag rounds can be lethal at close range. That's why they're generally refered to as "less-lethal" rather than "non-lethal."


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:32 pm 
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Here's some good non-lethal stuff if you want to do some reading: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... lethal.htm

And Matt, you're absolutely right, all munitions are potentially lethal.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:41 pm 
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PS.) I wouldn't forsee very many police departments going with the FN303. It's much more affordable to just buy bean bag rounds for the pump-action shotguns they already have. Meanwhile, most officers are already trained and qualified to use pump shotguns, which saves a lot of money on training.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:36 pm 
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"I didn't knew any difference between a theft and a robbery,I thought they were synonyms. In my reply I used robbery as a violence of proprety where no gun or anything else is involved." - Wouter

The definition of robbery is theft by force or threat of force (with or without a weapon), so technically all robberies are thefts, but not all thefts are robberies. Carjacking for example is a type of robbery.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:43 pm 
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Matt Z wrote:
"I didn't knew any difference between a theft and a robbery,I thought they were synonyms. In my reply I used robbery as a violence of proprety where no gun or anything else is involved." - Wouter

The definition of robbery is theft by force or threat of force (with or without a weapon), so technically all robberies are thefts, but not all thefts are robberies. Carjacking for example is a type of robbery.


Exactly. A common misconception people make. Like in a classroom setting for instance, when you turn and look the other way and someone snags your book or something and takes off with it, that's larceny, not robbery. So the term "I got just robbed" is used incorrectly very often :green:

But anyhow, here's a situation directly relating to this. My parents house got broken into. Luckily they weren't there, but if they had been and my dad had gone out guns blazing, he better had the mentality of shoot to kill. Because in talking with several cops and people related to cops about the situation, there's a lot of the times if you shot them in the leg or another non-lethal spot (which seems reasonable to me) that you might end up getting sued/paying their medical expenses. Which is such bullcrap. If you are simply "reacting" (going out with guns blazing because someone has BROKEN INTO YOUR HOUSE), you shouldn't have to second guess yourself. You shouldn't have to say "well he broke into my house but who knows if he has a gun or not." or "well I should probably wait to see if he goes for his gun first". But as someone said in an earlier post, if the person is fleeing you shouldn't be able to chase them down and shoot them in the back though.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:06 pm 
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I will start off saying that I have never had to use force and a pray that I never do have to, but...

I have no qualms about taking another life when that life is attempting to take from me or cause harm to me, my family or any other innocent.

As for the right to bare arms, our founding fathers wanted us to always be able to change the course of this country. They gave us every avenue of peace to do this. They also gave us the option of force when all else fails.

I am signed up for a concealed hand gun course (that I will probably have to delay). I plan to carry every place I am allowed by law to. Someone asked me why. To me it is simple. If I am put in a violent situation that I am unable to diffuse, I will react with violence.

I have posted this before. It is well worth reading, in my opinion.

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman
By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

"Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 12:15 am 
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I'm not going to go to far into it but I'm for Gun Control. If you get a chance look up the Port Arthur Massacre performed by Martin Bryant on the 28th of April 1996, 35 people dead and 21 injured. Martin was dating my neighbour at the time and had invited me to go surfing with him on the Tasman Peninsula about 6 weeks prior to the massacre! I hate guns, guns DO kill people and people who have guns that think they will never use them for the wrong reason could be just one terrible event away from being a killer! Anyway, I ain't about to try to convince anyone because I know I'm in the minority here, it's just my personal choice! Also being from Australia I've lived wiht gun control since 1996 and it's been pretty good in my opinion, I feel pretty safe when I walk the streets cause I know I've got a chance of deflecting a knife but a bullet is a whole other story! And for the record I chose somewhat agree, as I think anyone has the right to defend themselves wih due force, I think guns are undue force whether the atacker is armed or not!

Just my opinion, I can still get along with pro gun people, I'm not a preacher on the subject!

John


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 5:44 pm 
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I'm not sure what you may have heard, but the United States has gun control. There are litterally tens of thousands of gun laws at the federal, state and local level. Meanwhile, virtually everyone supports some level of regulation. The debate revolves around exactly what constitutes sensable gun control.


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:07 pm 
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I'm not familiar with the Port Arthur Massacre, so I can't really comment on it. However, I have a hard time believing that every gun owner is a would be mass-murderer.

Likewise, I'm sceptical that any country can eliminate gun violence simply by banning guns.


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 7:40 pm 
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Matt Z wrote:
I'm not familiar with the Port Arthur Massacre, so I can't really comment on it. However, I have a hard time believing that every gun owner is a would be mass-murderer.

Likewise, I'm sceptical that any country can eliminate gun violence simply by banning guns.


Yea I'm pretty liberal for the most part. I do believe in gun regulation, but I am one of the few liberals who sorta believe in gun rights ownership. You can't cure what ails the human heart, and were it not for guns, people would find another way to kill each other. Knives and bats and other weapons like that, or perhaps more people who be doing something perhaps even more sinister and poisoning people's drinks. Guns aren't evil in themselves. They are just a tool.


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