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Self defence is a basic human right.
I strongly agree. 93%  93%  [ 26 ]
I somewhat agree. 7%  7%  [ 2 ]
I disagree. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 28
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:21 pm 
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I believe that people should be allowed to carry phasers set on "stun." Or any kind of weapon which will immobilize the attacker. (I remember years ago, a Chinese boy was trick-or-treating in America and was shot dead because he entered the person's house. What a waste.) If a "concealed weapon" falls out of someone's pocket and shoots me in the leg, that's bad. If a Taser hit me on the leg, I'll live to lift weights another day.

What is this infatuation with "killing" anyway. Immobilize is my stance on the whole thing.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:45 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Less lethal weapons like tazers, stun guns, pepper spray and batons all have their uses, especially in law enforcement, but they also have limitations and drawbacks. For example, someone armed only with a tazer would be at a severe disadvantage against an attacker armed with a pistol.

Firearms are reliable, effective and relatively easy to use and maintain. That's why they're so popular.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:41 am 
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Non-Lethal Weapons really aren't that great of a Deterrent if you ask me.

Use this scenerio and imagine you are a Thief/Criminal:

You have 2 victims in your sights and WILL attack one of them....

Victim 1: Armed with a Non-Lethal Weapon....

Victim 2: Armed with a Lethal Weapon.....

Which will you choose to attack. I would Choose Victim 1 and take my chances that the Victim either couldn't properly use the non-lethal weapon, or is would malfunction. Knowing that EVEN IF the Victim was able to get me with their NON-LETHAL Weapon, I would live to attack another day.

Additionally, Studies and Real World events have shown that Tazers and Stun Guns are not effective at stopping someone who is High on Meth and other Drugs.

Cliff


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:43 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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PS) Outside of the movies it's pretty unlikely that a handgun would discharge just from being dropped. Meanwhile, there are a wide range of holsters made specifically for concealed carry.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:49 am 
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Matt Z wrote:
PS) Outside of the movies it's pretty unlikely that a handgun would discharge just from being dropped. Meanwhile, there are a wide range of holsters made specifically for concealed carry.


Very Good Point Matt.

Just about the only weapons/handguns that would Accidentally Discharge from being dropped are customized Competition weapons which typically are not carried daily. These Customized weapons are used by Highly Trained individuals and you really don't have to worry about them dropping them.

Cliff


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:48 pm 
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I shot a gun last weekend, a .22 and a .308

Both with scopes. It was awsome! The day i turn 18 im getting my gun license and im going to buy a rem 700 desert.

Not for self defence, just for fun.

Many people say "oh, you shouldnt have a gun in your house, something horrible can happen."

Many gun accidents are preventable. Im going to have a case so i can lock my gun and a seperate safe to lock my bullets.

And i can even do that thing mark walhberg did in Shooter so that no one can shoot his gun.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:43 pm 
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I am probably going to get flamed for this but...

You all must agree that if there were no guns, nobody could ever get killed by one.

However, if there was no violence, but still guns, people could still get killed because of guns.

The fact that guns are often a "no reverse" option is what makes them so dangerous.

So it seems to me like the problem lies in the fact that if regular law abiding citizens can't have guns, then the criminals will find a way to get their hands on them and then there is this large rift of power.

Can we all agree then, that if we could get rid of all the guns, there is no reason to have them around?

To the original discussion, the problem with self defense is, truth be told, action that prevents future attacks, like... hunting down someone that robbed you, or shooting them as they flee, makes just as much sense as shooting them while they are in the process of drawing down on you or whatever. Why? Because there is never certainty that they are not going to try to come back some other time with more weapons and "outgun" you, forgive the pun, escalating to the point where people would have 21st century castles to feel safe.

My point is, I don't just want to not be killed, I don't want to have to deal with being robbed or screamed at or basically have to deal with some idiot at all; this would open up all kinds of shootings for very minor things and make me feel like I needed to wear a bullet proof suit just to walk down the street at night.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:17 pm 
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Ryan A wrote:
I am probably going to get flamed for this but...

You all must agree that if there were no guns, nobody could ever get killed by one.


Obviously, but people will always kill each other using some other method.
We will never have a Utopia free of violence and war.

It is basic human nature to kill each other, as it is to love each other. Just like many different species.

Some may argue that humans are more intelligent than other species but many people are still ignorant even after millions of years of learning. Also people are always trying to prevent death as if it is something so horrible. Im not saying to let ourselves die, I just don't see any bad in someone dying, nor do i see any good. It's just Death.

I would just like to conclude in saying that I would rather have Freedom over Safety any day.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:58 pm 
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Ryan A wrote:
I am probably going to get flamed for this but...

You all must agree that if there were no guns, nobody could ever get killed by one.

However, if there was no violence, but still guns, people could still get killed because of guns.

The fact that guns are often a "no reverse" option is what makes them so dangerous.

So it seems to me like the problem lies in the fact that if regular law abiding citizens can't have guns, then the criminals will find a way to get their hands on them and then there is this large rift of power.

Can we all agree then, that if we could get rid of all the guns, there is no reason to have them around?

To the original discussion, the problem with self defense is, truth be told, action that prevents future attacks, like... hunting down someone that robbed you, or shooting them as they flee, makes just as much sense as shooting them while they are in the process of drawing down on you or whatever. Why? Because there is never certainty that they are not going to try to come back some other time with more weapons and "outgun" you, forgive the pun, escalating to the point where people would have 21st century castles to feel safe.

My point is, I don't just want to not be killed, I don't want to have to deal with being robbed or screamed at or basically have to deal with some idiot at all; this would open up all kinds of shootings for very minor things and make me feel like I needed to wear a bullet proof suit just to walk down the street at night.


nope, no flaming. There are problems with some of those statements though. The first one is a silly hypothetical. It just says that if something doesn't exist it can't kill you. But they do exist so that doesn't really say anything.

The next one would also be true, but it really isn't possible. Maybe when we know everything there is to know about the brain and fix any problems with the instinctual morality of a person. That would involve a lot of knowledge of genes too, because some kind of mutation could be the problem also.

Criminals ignoring the gun laws isn't the only problem. Another problem is creating a black market. In fact current black markets are the main source of the money that funds illegal gun smuggling.

there are legitimate uses for guns. Hunting is one use for example.

Then this is debatable but with many citizens being armed, if the government become oppressive or if another country was somehow able to invade the US, they would find themselves with a nasty insurgency that would make Iraq look like nothing. This is a stretch but it was the point of the constitutional amendment.

So maybe people will loose all interest in guns when our society advances to the point where we can fix any mental issue genetic or otherwise and no longer needs prisons or anything. When people no longer have any illogical fanatical beliefs.

When we reach the point of our ideal utopia, you may be right. But until then, I don't think that's going to work.


According to the violent crime graphs I have seen, the state by state break downs that graph over many years, the best thing that can be done is this. Decriminalize black markets, like drugs. Find a way to increase people's IQ. Convince everyone to be an atheist. Bring everyone out of poverty, to at least a lower middle class standard of living.

The middle 2 are not really possible. The other 2 are though.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:06 pm 
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Jebus wrote:
Ryan A wrote:
I am probably going to get flamed for this but...

You all must agree that if there were no guns, nobody could ever get killed by one.


Obviously, but people will always kill each other using some other method.
We will never have a Utopia free of violence and war.

It is basic human nature to kill each other, as it is to love each other. Just like many different species.

Some may argue that humans are more intelligent than other species but many people are still ignorant even after millions of years of learning. Also people are always trying to prevent death as if it is something so horrible. Im not saying to let ourselves die, I just don't see any bad in someone dying, nor do i see any good. It's just Death.

I would just like to conclude in saying that I would rather have Freedom over Safety any day.



No it's not really basic human nature to kill. People only kill if there is a very strong reason for. The reason does not have to make any sense of course.

While many people's intelligence level leaves much to be desired, I would venture a guess that 99.99%+ of people are smarter than, bonobos, chimps, neanderthals and homoerectus.

I think we can have something close to a utopia in the future. It is going to involve big advances in genetics and knowledge of the brain though.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:01 pm 
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I don't believe that medicine and psychology will ever create a utopian society free of violence. As long as people are free to make choices, some will choose to be violent, just as some choose to steal.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:06 pm 
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Matt Z wrote:
I don't believe that medicine and psychology will ever create a utopian society free of violence. As long as people are free to make choices, some will choose to be violent, just as some choose to steal.


which is why we got da polize!! lol

I notice that allot of people will do the opposite if told to do something. Teenagers are a perfect example. Many try so hard to force thier kid not to smoke, and they end up doing crack lol.

Its just like the sand castle and sign. If you build a sand castle, there is a chance it could get knocked down but if you put up a sign saying, "Don't break please," Boom destroyed!


Last edited by Jebus on Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:10 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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That reminds me an idea I had for an anti-personnel gravestone. Picture an anti-personnel mine with a presure switch and a headstone sitting on top. If anyone knocks over the headstone, the switch releases and the mine takes out everything for a 10 yard radius.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:54 pm 
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@ Jebus first response

My point about the hypothetical statement is more that, if you got rid of guns, the ability of one human to kill another human would be drastically decreased.

Although I am not hoping for utopia around the corner, or even that "utopia" will ever exist, violence and war are easily solvable problems.

It is basic human nature to survive, not kill each other. Animals don't just go around killing each other for no reason; their reasons are very specific: food and mating, or the access via territory for the former.

Humans are obviously more intelligent than all other species on the planet because they are the only ones even capable of pondering the idea.

I don't know about you, but given the choice between dying and living forever, I would choose living forever, assuming any sensible quality of life (and I am pretty wide open there).

I would also rather have freedom over safety but if I am not safe enough to practice my freedom, than that is not freedom.

@Ironman's 1st response
I think most people who act violently do so because they have poor information. If you could increase their access to information they would very likely make different choices. In a group situation, violence is rarely advantageous to the overall welfare of the group. People do not live isolated enough lives for the math to work out on the side of total selfishness.

I would put more trust in a citizen organized computer virus threat than an army with rifles against tanks. But I agree there is some merit to this manner of thinking but given the current apathy of the average person, I think an insurgency would be unlikely, more like a plea for bigger HDTV's and then we would just roll over.

Well at least we can agree on everyone being an atheist. I am pretty sure that is the number one source of war scale violence and if not it is very close and/or a co-factor.

I also agree about making people smarter and that is going to be hard because people hate to be smart.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:12 am 
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I should have written more clearly that I don't think humans are dumber than animals I'm just saying humans are not that smart, to me anyway. I think we have a long way to go. The day we can all live in peace and happiness is that day our race becomes superior.

Also when I said that its human nature to kill, as it is to love. Its from my understanding that attachment leads to violence. And therefore, attachment is a natural personality we all have, eventually leading to violence.


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