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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:05 am 
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Matt Z wrote:
I also think the "strong association" between Catholic clergy and pedophilia is greatly exagerated, partly because of the intense media attention (the media loves scandals) and partly because most people (including Catholics) greatly underestimate the actual number of priests in the US.


Coming from an institution that is supposed to give one peace, guidance and enlightenment, ONE SINGLE CASE of molestation is too much. People are supposed to trust the church, look to it for advice, strength in times of weakness and strife. The church is supposed to be a haven, a temple, a place where I can be free, where I can be me. A place of inspiration and love. One rotten apple, in a place where sin is to be washed away, spoils the entire orchard.

If you knew what it feels like to be raped, you would understand why this is one of the most monstrous crimes ever committed by one human against another. It is a lifetime of pain, loneliness, and black, and a man you looked to as a messenger of GOD did it to you. One single case of molestation, all it takes is one.

The fact the church covered this situation up, one can draw their own conclusions.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:52 am 
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TheHeb wrote:
Ironman wrote:
As for celibacy causing pedophilia in some men, that is just a hypothesis, however the association is strong. I think it is unnatural and that because every mortal sin is equally bad, having sex with the alter boys is no worse than anything else they could do. I think the unnatural suppression of a strong drive (face we wouldn't be here to talk about it if it wasn't) can make you a little crazy. There is also a strong association between pedophilia and priests. But it could be that pedophiles become priests thinking they won't have to worry about sexual feelings anymore.


Appeals to nature are generally fallacious. What constitutes "natural" is far too ambiguous. Consider this phrase:

"unnatural suppression of a strong drive can make you a little crazy"

What is unnatural suppression? What is strong drive? In this context not having sex by choice is considered an "unnatural suppression," which should seem silly. If not, let me expand. How often must one have sex to avoid unnaturally suppressing this "strong drive?" If my girlfriend is holding out on me, how long do I have until I start molesting little boys?

I'm just kinda surprised and curious that you used the word "nature" here.



I think you misunderstood me. There have to be some strict religious dogmas for this to work. It also takes a bit more time than what you are thinking. Also any animals that are around are horny little bastards. This is a trait greatly favored by natural selection. So obviously the drive is very powerful. Keep in mind there are no sexual outlets of any kind that aren't sins in the Catholic church. I think it is also the guilt one may feel about this sexual gratification and the equivalence of all sexual sins, that may cause this. I also stated clearly that this is a hypothesis and not a proven theory. As I said, the cause/effect could be the other way around.

You also can't discount the effects of sex in relationships. Romantic relationships fall apart when they stop having sex because that is an important part of intimacy for people. It is not that they are always in a one way cause and effect relationship, so much as both are both cause and effect. When one dies so does the other. Man being a social primate, the lack of intimacy could also be a factor for priests independent of anything sexual.

And when I say natural I am speaking in a biological sense.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:00 am 
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hoosegow wrote:
There seems to be a lot of anti Christian sentiment as well. People are stupid and sheep because they believe a certain way, no?


No, I think christians are just no longer being treated with the deference they had been accustomed to. People angrily oppose their "rights" to oppress unpopular minorities or try to push more religion into to government and public places. I think you mistake that for anti christian sentiment.

The population is still mostly christian. Although people with no religion are the fastest growing group, at 16% now. However of any group people in general would rather elect a homosexual president over an atheist. Of someone you don't want dating your daughter atheist was number 1. This is of course mostly due to misconceptions. But it still shows the country is much more christian than you think. Although this will likely change in the future.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:45 am 
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Ironman,
I swear sitting around a campfire drinking some beer with you would be a lot of fun.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:53 pm 
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Big news her this week in the UK was the publication of the 10 year report into the abuse of children in Irish-Catholic care homes. Don't know if the story made it across the pond.

The 2600-page report by Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse found rape was endemic in more than 250 Irish-Catholic care institutions from the 1930s to the 1990s, and the church protected pedophiles from prosecution. Couple that with the shocking statistic that the Catholic church in the US has so far to date paid out $1 billion in compensation to victims of abuse, it doesn't paint a very attractive picture of the Catholic Church.

The alarming pattern on both sides of the Altantic was the coverup put in place by the church. When they found out what was going on, instead of alerting the authorities, they just moved people from place to place so as not to draw attention.

To top it all off, in the case of the Irish story, no one will ever face prosecution.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 7:12 pm 
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hoosegow wrote:
Ironman,
I swear sitting around a campfire drinking some beer with you would be a lot of fun.


Yea, as long as you don't throw the bottle at me. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:19 pm 
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"Coming from an institution that is supposed to give one peace, guidance and enlightenment, ONE SINGLE CASE of molestation is too much. People are supposed to trust the church, look to it for advice, strength in times of weakness and strife. The church is supposed to be a haven, a temple, a place where I can be free, where I can be me. A place of inspiration and love." - nygmen

I can't argue with that. However, my intension was never to make excuses for rapists, or downplay the damage they do, but rather to defend the vast majority of priests who AREN'T child molesters.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:52 pm 
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"The 2600-page report by Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse found rape was endemic in more than 250 Irish-Catholic care institutions from the 1930s to the 1990s, and the church protected pedophiles from prosecution. Couple that with the shocking statistic that the Catholic church in the US has so far to date paid out $1 billion in compensation to victims of abuse, it doesn't paint a very attractive picture of the Catholic Church.

The alarming pattern on both sides of the Altantic was the coverup put in place by the church. When they found out what was going on, instead of alerting the authorities, they just moved people from place to place so as not to draw attention.

To top it all off, in the case of the Irish story, no one will ever face prosecution." - Proper Knob

I'm a little currious about how the commission determined the authenticity of these allegations if none of the cases actually went to trial. After all, the possibility of compensation would provided a strong incentive for false accusations.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:26 am 
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Even the coverup issue is more complicated than it appears on the surface. For example, in some cases Bishops only became aware that molestation was taking place after the offending priest revealed his actions in confession. This creates a major ethical problem, since confessions are considered highly confidential.

Likewise, it's common for priests to be moved frequently. This isn't neccissarily proof of something sinister.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:09 pm 
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The 2,575 page report into this affair found that the abuse was 'endemic' in Catholic Church instituations, rape, beatings, molestation and even flogging of children occurred over 50yrs.

Priests have been tried and convicted over this matter, but due to a successful lawsuit by the Christian Brothers in 2004, no member was named in the report, dead or alive.

I'll paste a few snippets from news sources to give you a sense of how this unfolded.

The Irish Catholic priest Brendan Smyth pleads guilty in Northern Ireland to 17 counts of indecently assaulting five girls and two boys in Belfast. His order, the Norbertines, spent decades shuttling Smyth among Irish and US parishes and harboured him from British arrest. The Irish prime minister, Albert Reynolds, resigns and his government collapses amid claims his attorney general colluded with church authorities to delay the British extradition demand for Smyth. The case shatters Irish taboo against pursuing criminal charges against priests.

Andrew Madden, a former Dublin altar boy, becomes the first Irish citizen to speak publicly about abuse by a Catholic priest. Madden says the Dublin archdiocese paid him €35,000 ([1 million dollars],000) to keep quiet about three years of assaults by the Rev Ivan Payne.

The Dublin archbishop, Desmond Connell, denies any deal until Madden provides documentary proof of a church payoff. The case spurs hundreds of alleged abuse victims to pursue civil lawsuits against the church authorities in Ireland.

After serving a prison term in Northern Ireland, Smyth is extradited south and pleads guilty to 74 counts of sexually abusing 20 boys and girls between 1958 and 1993. He dies of a heart attack in a military prison one month into 12-year sentence. Payne is convicted in Dublin on 14 counts of sexually abusing eight boys aged 11 to 14. He serves four years in prison.

The Rev Sean Fortune commits suicide in prison while awaiting trial on 66 criminal charges of molesting and raping 29 boys in the south-eastern Ferns diocese.

The Ferns bishop Brendan Comiskey becomes the first and only Irish church figure to resign because of failures to stop abuse. He admits he did too little to stop paedophile priests.

The government establishes a board to pay compensation to people who suffered sexual, physical or mental abuse in church-run institutions. Payouts require claimants to renounce their right to sue the church and state authorities. Taxpayers, not the church, cover the bulk of the cost.

Justice Mary Laffoy, the commission's original judge, resigns, complaining that the government's education department – which holds the most records on church-run institutions – is obstructing her investigation. Her successor, Justice Sean Ryan, says the investigation must severely limit the number of abuse cases it considers or it will never finish.

An investigation led by a retired supreme court justice finds that church, police and state authorities did too little to stop the sexual abuse of hundreds of children by 21 priests in Ferns. The report says Ferns bishops sheltered and promoted priests known to have raped altar boys and molested schoolgirls on an altar.

An unknown number of alleged perpetrators also moved to Australia, such as Father Denis McAlinden, who moved from Ireland in 1949 to the Maitland-Newcastle Diocese and died in 2005 with a trail of child sex allegations, a compensation payout and an outstanding warrant for his arrest for sexually assaulting an 11-year-old girl.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Matt Z wrote:
"The 2600-page report by Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse found rape was endemic in more than 250 Irish-Catholic care institutions from the 1930s to the 1990s, and the church protected pedophiles from prosecution. Couple that with the shocking statistic that the Catholic church in the US has so far to date paid out $1 billion in compensation to victims of abuse, it doesn't paint a very attractive picture of the Catholic Church.

The alarming pattern on both sides of the Altantic was the coverup put in place by the church. When they found out what was going on, instead of alerting the authorities, they just moved people from place to place so as not to draw attention.

To top it all off, in the case of the Irish story, no one will ever face prosecution." - Proper Knob

I'm a little currious about how the commission determined the authenticity of these allegations if none of the cases actually went to trial. After all, the possibility of compensation would provided a strong incentive for false accusations.


Let's not forget that most rape or sexual abuse goes unreported due to shame and embarrassment.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 2:11 pm 
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Matt Z wrote:

However, my intention was never to make excuses for rapists, or downplay the damage they do.


I figured, only a monster would do that, and you seem like a pretty decent fella.

I didn't mean to come off like I was accusing you of anything. I'm just pretty passionate about this particular subject, and literally "x"ed out of that reply 6 times before I posted. I didn't want to get into this, only because I know I'll lose my top, and well that's never good.

I know there are a ton of great priests out there, a ton. I'm just totally ruined and can't trust a single white collar. It's a personal issue at this point.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 2:14 pm 
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Ironman wrote:
Matt Z wrote:
"The 2600-page report by Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse found rape was endemic in more than 250 Irish-Catholic care institutions from the 1930s to the 1990s, and the church protected pedophiles from prosecution. Couple that with the shocking statistic that the Catholic church in the US has so far to date paid out $1 billion in compensation to victims of abuse, it doesn't paint a very attractive picture of the Catholic Church.

The alarming pattern on both sides of the Altantic was the coverup put in place by the church. When they found out what was going on, instead of alerting the authorities, they just moved people from place to place so as not to draw attention.

To top it all off, in the case of the Irish story, no one will ever face prosecution." - Proper Knob

I'm a little currious about how the commission determined the authenticity of these allegations if none of the cases actually went to trial. After all, the possibility of compensation would provided a strong incentive for false accusations.


Let's not forget that most rape or sexual abuse goes unreported due to shame and embarrassment.


You blame and hate yourself too. It's like spending your life locked and a 6x6 room, pitch black, full of self loathing, when you have the key to the door in your hand. You just can't unlock it, you know how, and know it's there, you just can't do it.

It's hard to bring public charge against someone else when you feel like it's your fault.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:10 pm 
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When the Pope visited Yankee Stadium last year, he said something like the sexual abuse of children has to stop. Mild applause. Then he said something against abortion, and there was rapturous applause. Hmmm...

The Church blew it, pretty much condoning pedophilia; that's where I get off the boat.

And hardly anyone goes to church anymore. The attitude now is, "You go to church? REALLY?!?"


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:30 pm 
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You should all watch, Religilous.

Its all based on Ignorance.
I don't mean to affend anyone but If you Believe in god, you'r ignorant.
You don't KNOW "god" exists you just think he does. Until YOU actually SEE "god" then you KNOW he exists, but until then you don't lol which I think will be a very long time.


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