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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:24 pm 
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Oh and I forgot to address one thing so I'll make a new post here. In regards to the "nice guy" rich people, I know they exist, and that's a good thing. I think it should be a requirement for really rich people to just "hang out" for a week or whatever with someone living in poverty and see what their life is like. That way, when the bad rich dudes are scheming and creating laws and loopholes to screw over the rest of us, there'd be a face to those they are doing it too. It might make them think twice. It's easy to make bad decisions regarding others when they're nameless. Especially just manipulation of laws and whatnot. That's why I doubt many white collared criminals wake up having nightmares about the funds they embezzled from their coworkers when its just as bad as going into their home and stealing from them.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:56 pm 
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Jebus wrote:
Money is good, the richest people in the world are also some of the nicest.
Bill gates, Warren Buffet.

Also I forgot to mention I was thinking about getting a dividend mutual fund, or a ETF, I can't decide on which one to get though.

Also If it wasn't for Investing, mass production our standard of living would probably be $h1t compared to what it is now.

All of those rich people who are corrupt and are assholes, would probably be just as corrupt or an ass if they were poor.


The ETF is better in most cases. Mutual funds have fees. Depending on how high they are, between it and inflation, you could end up making nothing.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:17 pm 
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I think being wealthy doesn't make you good or bad. There do happen to be a lot of greedy people who got rich because of that and have no problem taking advantage of others. Then there are some who just got money because they had a good idea or talent, or were doing the right thing, in the right place, at the right time.

As for Buffet and Gates, sure they are rich, but nobody in the middle class gives to the point to where it affects their lifestyle either. Both of those 2 have given more to charity then they have kept for themselves. Of course Gates may just feel guilty about Microsoft's business practices.

Speaking about Microsoft, although Windows 7 isn't going to be all that much cheaper, it looks like it isn't going to be released as a buggy POS glorified beta edition. In fact I tried out the beta and I thought it was as good from a bugs and stability standpoint as Vista or XP after the first service pack. The release candidate was the best version of Windows I had seen. I didn't have it up long enough to be sure of it, but it does seem to be fairly stable. Probably not Unix/Linux stand, but getting there. As for the security..... don't hold your breath. Just keep it behind a good firewall and have an AV running.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:45 pm 
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I'm posting from my phone so I can't really get into this conversation even though I'm foaming at the mouth too.

Can we get a roll call as to what people do for a living? I think it will a perspective of where some of the ideas people have are coming from. This thread is very interesting on multiple levels.

I'm a 4th year public accountant, with over 10,000 hours billed. Pased the exam but need more credits for my paper.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:00 pm 
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I am a graduate student in physics about two years out from finishing my research/dissertation.

My income is from being a teaching assistant.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:30 pm 
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Also posting from my phone, so direct answers only.

Day job: CADD Manager for a civil engineering firm

Nights and Weekends: Own a small Internet Services company. Focusing on web hosting and design

Cliff


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:24 am 
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I work at Leon's Furniture lol, in the Warehouse.

Going back to school and then maybe taking Economics.

I'm sure allot of those mean rich people would be dicks even if they were poor.

Also what i like about Capitalism is that anyone no matter who you are, or what you were born with, you can become the richest person in the world.(I shouldnt have to give examples...)

I want to become rich because I can, and once i've done that i'll use my money to increase the standard of living for as many as possible.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:54 am 
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Ach - some people have a very bitter view of people with a lot of money. That's fair enough. Apart from the very obvious cases i.e. people that didn't do anything to earn the money, and people that routinely break the law, which seems to be the biggest issue here, I can't help but have a hell of a lot of respect for people with a lot of money. It's not an easy thing to do - it takes a relentless, single minded and most of the time, long term/life long effort. The more you make, the more you risk. There's a hell of a lot involved in getting rich, it's not like you just sell your soul to the devil and automatically end up a millionaire.

Rucifer - I don't disagree with your thoughts but I don't think they're realistic, atleast not in most parts of the western world. You're a part of the 'system' whether you like it or not. Everyone needs to make a living. To live, you need money. It can be twisted whatever way anyone likes, but without money, you're screwed. It doesn't mean we all need to become ruthless, law breaking fat cat executives.... I think you have a choice - you can moan about the way you think things 'should' be, or you can accept how things are and get on with it.

I think it's very rare that Mr Average looks to 'invest' so that he can get on the Forbes rich list. Typically, it's to make more money from the money they already have. And, it's not, and never is a sure thing. It's very easy to go the other way and lose everything.

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Why would you want to stick with the small fish when there's bigger to be had?


You could say this about anything - why be a 'weekend warrior' when ou could be a professional BB. Why should I be a manager when I could 'technically' go all the way to the top and take ownership or part ownership of the whole company.... Why have a modest, sensible car when you can have supercar. Not everyone is even trying to become the next Bill Gates. Most are just looking for a 'nest egg'.

There's always bigger fish. It's the way things are. There's always someone bigger than you or stronger than you, and there's always someone better off than you, or worse off than you, unless your in the elite category, which is probably less than 1%.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:24 am 
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In terms of careers.

My day job (and then some) is Internet Marketing.

Probably relevant is that i've dabbled in property, too. Although, I got into it just before the market crashed. I only bought and sold one house, and bought and rented one out (still renting it out just now). However, i've bought and sold as well as pick up a couple on behalf of my dad - who's got the means to do it, but not the time. This has obviously not been an active part of my life recently, apart from repairs/maintenance side of it(and getting new tennants).

I used to be obsessed with money, until I got obsessed with training people. I decided to get into internet marketing because it seemed like a good thing to do and there wasn't anything in particular that I liked. It's not my passion at all but I never really had a passion until a couple of years ago (i'm 24, btw). Now I just want a career i'll enjoy, and i'm currently spending a lot of money and time trying to make that happen.

I'm also not all that bothered now about fancy cars and huge houses and mega money. However, it doesn't change how I feel about those who live for that kind of thing...

With my current job, I get to meet A LOT of succesful people. It's very interesting, actually. They range from small business owners to very big business owners.

Also, my dad has been self employed since he was 16. He's had more businesses than I can remember. He done it from nothing, and has came close to bankruptcy on a few occasions. He also done it largely as a single parent.

Conversely, my Grandad worked hard and spent sensibly all his life for a big development business and walked away with a great pension. He saved and invested wisely for his retirement all of his life. He was never wealthy until retirement - atleast, he never let on to anyone. As you would imagine, he and my dad never got on too well, lol although the old man has respect for him now. It's 2 very different and interesting paths to take.

My Grandad is 80 right now and sits on the net looking after his investments. Oh, and playing Bridge.

KPj


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:09 pm 
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I am a Unix/Linux systems administrator/engineer for a large hosting company. I work 12 hour shifts on the weekend. I have a lot of experience in server and network administration and troubleshooting. I even did some Windows admin for a few years. I got my start doing more basic computer tech kind of work. I spend my days doing troubleshooting, change requests, general administration and maintenance on the servers of our clients.

I am also of course a volunteer admin here and an amateur noncompeting bodybuilder. I played guitar and bass for a while and was pretty good at it too. I'm pretty rusty now though. I'm also an avid intellectual and outspoken atheist.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:43 pm 
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Rucifer wrote:
Stock markets have not always been around, and there were many advances in technology/civilization without them.


I agree, the wheel and fire being two examples. Investing in companies has been around for quite a long time, and the mass organization of these investments, the market, has been around for while too.

Lets not forget what the "market" really is.


Rucifer wrote:
Human ingenuity would persevere without them.


Yes, but I'm not going to go out of my way to provide anyone else with my fantastic inventions for nothing.


Lets say I invented Whodaddies, and they made your car get 4,000 miles to the gallon in gas. But there is no market, and no organized way to get people to invest in my company. I can't buy the machines to mass produce my invention, and I can't turn a profit on the Whodaddies without mass production. Looks like I'm going to work at my desk job tomorrow, being the only person in the world to get 4,000 mpg.

Think about it. Even if someone did invent something to make their life easier, they won't share it for nothing. The market & capitalism in general promote invention and advancement. Granted it is through greed, but whatever, it gets the job done.

Ryan A wrote:
The main problem I see with investing in stocks is that it makes money carry more weight in society because the stock market allows excess money to be multiplied and then multiplied some more. This leads to the validity of the phrase "money talks" which I think is the low point of human society. Excess money allows people to bypass having good, well though out ideas and just flaunt the franklins.


Did Russia, North Korea & Cuba have great philosophers? Because I don't believe they invented the airplane, car, telephone, computer, internet or compact disk. (I may be misinterpreting your statement about the lack of ideas that money causes, and if I am, please explain it to me, because as is, it makes little sense to me.)

The market also does not create money out of thin air. It doesn't just multiply you dollar by some arbitrary figure that creates a new value. You don't actually realize any gain in cash what-so-ever until you sell. You have realized and unrealized gains. The unreal gains come from the fluctuation of the stock prices, you get the realized (IE: taxable) gains from selling above what you paid.

The price of a stock is dependent upon the performance of the company to which the stock belongs. As a company does better, it grows, it hires more people, makes more orders for supplies, it helps the economy as a whole.

Rucifer wrote:
I always imagine the CEO/corporate types as Mr. Scrooges sitting behind desks, marveling at their own riches and ignoring all else. Same with the wall street type.


The CEO that "stops to smell the roses" will be fired right quick. You need to ABC 24/7 in this world. The CEO is like the quarterback, gets all the glory and takes all the blame. They get paid well yes, but deserve it based on how demanding their job is.

wilburburns wrote:
Often times, they create their own excitement and create a false demand, only so that they can unload their crappy investments to the little guy.


Change "often times" with "It has happened in the past, but one can go to prison for doing so" and I agree with what you are saying.

Rucifer wrote:
human institutions such as the economy and stock market and intangible other creations that literally have no "soul" doesn't give me much hope in the grand scheme of things.


You understand how the economy and market works right? It is not like there is a group of 6 dudes sitting behind a desk somewhere making all these numbers and index's up.

The market and economy is the culmination of the actions and reactions of almost everyone involved in the world.

I find it rather beautiful in it's chaotic unpredictability.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:35 pm 
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Hi nygmen,

That is not quite what I had in mind by "bypassing ideas". I was referring to lobbyists and every day joes who can get what they want, not by explaining themselves well, but by handing out money in its place. Campaign contributions etc are what I am referring to.

I am not anti capitalist and agree with most of what you said above. Unfortunately, it seems a necessary evil in capitalism is that for good ideas to flourish, money must be allowed to be exchanged freely. In allowing this, corruption often becomes rampant.

This is why when I hear people scream "corporations shouldn't exist" I cringe. I realize they can be corrupted but there is really no other feasible way to get someone to invest a large sum of money (needed to get a great idea spread to enough people), without the protection of a corporation.

What are your thoughts on this specific entity in the market?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:04 pm 
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Ryan A wrote:
Hi nygmen,

That is not quite what I had in mind by "bypassing ideas". I was referring to lobbyists and every day joes who can get what they want, not by explaining themselves well, but by handing out money in its place. Campaign contributions etc are what I am referring to.


ha ha, okay. Yeah I totally misinterpreted what you meant. I tend to agree with the above...

Quote:
I am not anti capitalist and agree with most of what you said above. Unfortunately, it seems a necessary evil in capitalism is that for good ideas to flourish, money must be allowed to be exchanged freely. In allowing this, corruption often becomes rampant.

This is why when I hear people scream "corporations shouldn't exist" I cringe. I realize they can be corrupted but there is really no other feasible way to get someone to invest a large sum of money (needed to get a great idea spread to enough people), without the protection of a corporation.

What are your thoughts on this specific entity in the market?


Yeah, you are right. But it is like anything. Someone, somewhere is going to take advantage and go too far. Some people just let a few rotten apples spoil the bunch. IMO.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:29 pm 
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Ok so I am stupid and don't know how to do mass quotes in a post, I am going to try and address all the issues thrown at me without using any quotes. So let's see how this goes-

First off, there are certainly more than a few "bad apples" when you are talking about corporations. If you cringe at people when they are anti-corporate (I can't remember who exactly said that), then you are just cringing at people who don't like to get exploited. That is the ultimate goal of any corporation- to make money, and they will do WHATEVER they can get away with. Those corporations who actually try to act like they are "good" use that as a selling ploy to sell more products. And the average people of society ARE exploited, and we have just forgotten it here in America due to the fact that even average people have some creature comforts. But guess what? Paying someone minimum wage is exploiting them. Have you ever tried to survive on minimum wage? Can you raise a family on minimum wage? You wouldn't be typing on a computer, that's for sure (unless you took a trip to a public library- which guess what- that's socialism at work). Most people working minimum wage bust their butts at whatever job they are at, as much as the "CEO", but just because their job is not as skilled as the CEO's they are paid a fraction of what he makes. So this same CEO "hard working American" who owns 3 vacation homes and uses every possible manner to shield his income from taxes is now felt sorry for in America, because he might have to go down to just 2 vacation homes instead of 3. Robin Hood must be rolling over in his grave. What ever happened to compassion to those who are less fortunate? Lords and nobles and aristocrats who repressed the masses throughout history now are just have a different name. They are business leaders concerned about the "market" as opposed to warfare. All they have done is gotten smarter about holding on too their assets and not being concerned with swordplay.

Does this come off as idealist? Yes. I realize my beliefs definitely outside the norm from the mainstream. But I am so sick of and tired of hearing how hard of jobs CEO's have compared to the rest of us and that they deserve to get paid so much more than us. That's why they go and spend $400,000 or whatever it was on a golf retreat after WE BAILED THEM OUT (stupid AIG execs). And guess that? That wasn't Obama, Mr "Socialist", who let them do that. That was good ole fashioned American Dubya. So someone who works two minimum wage jobs and has 16 hour days doesn't bust their butt? Someone like me who works 40 hours a week and still goes to school full time is just a lazy slob who bleeds off the system just because I am poor? Or how bout this- a young 19 year old kid who goes out to Iraq defending us from harm, and dies in the process, doesn't deserve as much money as some old fat bald dude sitting behind his desk in his big comfy chair with his nice air conditioned room? Sorry- but don't count me among those who have sympathy or side with the wealthy in believing they earned their tax cuts or 5 vacation homes with seven sports cars to back it up. I have worked at a place that catered to the incredibly wealthy, and plenty fit that exact description. That's why its common knowledge almost all wealth of the country is kept in the hands of a small few (percentage wise, compared to the rest of us that is). I don't remember the exact figure off the top of my head, but I remember it being somewhere in the ballpark of 10% control 80% of the wealth. Can you think of any poor politician on the national, state, or even local level? How can we say everyone in society is getting fair representation, when those who do all the representing are the wealthy? That doesn't seem very fair to me.

While we are on the topic of idealism, if what I believe is idealism, it is just as idealistic to think that everyone in our country has a shot at wealth. Most people are born into wealth. True, America is not as bad as an ancient Caste system or something to that effect, but the idea that everyone starts off on equal footing is as idealistic as what I believe. A poor kid from the ghetto has almost no opportunities whatsoever to get out of it, no matter how dedicated he is. It starts off with the schools he is in, which even if he excels at, provides him with poor footing if he were to go to an elite college, or for that matter, almost any college, depending on how bad urban school is. There are roadblocks everywhere for the poor that the wealthy almost never even have to be bothered with. This is the product of capitalism and the market. Unchecked capitalism would be one of the worst things imaginable, leaving it all up to the "market". In fact its how this country started and working conditions were terrible and child labor ran rampant, as did slavery in the south, and it was nearly as bad as the serfdom system for most. If it wasn't for socialist ideals nothing ever would have changed. So perhaps instead of capitalism mixed with tiny bits of socialism, we need to BE socialists with tiny bits of capitalism mixed in. Or at least half and half. But our current system is so firmly entrenched, that not even socialist Obama would be able to do this.

Karl Marx said that religion was the opiate of the masses...but even we can't turn to the church anymore to side with the meek, as the weird combination of secular right values has found its home in our churches, even though moral points in the bible has places in both left and right values. So can I accept the fact that some people have more money than others? Sure, that's just a simple fact of our system. What I can't accept is that those with money are held in high regard simply because they accumulated great wealth, as opposed to their deeds. I also can't accept that people who have been blessed with such great fortune have no obligation to repay a system that has rewarded them so kindly by at the very least paying their fair share of taxes. As idealistic as this is, I know I am just one man who is part of the system, and can't really do a whole lot to change it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:20 pm 
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wow, you sound jealous.

Atleast we have big corporations, who do you think employs most of the workforce?

Also a poor person fromt the ghetto has almost no chance of getting out of it?

Look at 50 cent, he went from living in a 175 000$ house to owning a
175 000$ Ring.

Also Most CEO's have tons of schooling, and have worked very hard to get to where they are now. The CEO of McDonalds and the top 50 employees all started from flipping burgurs.

CEO's don't exploit they're workers lol they need us just as much as we need them its mutual. (China is a different story)

Also you don't have to work a minimum wage job, there are other jobs that don't require school that pay up to 17$/h (Ikea Warehouse).

You are right, a corporation's goal is to make money, which in turn creates our jobs. So withought they're greed, were fv(k


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